2 Cops 1 Donut
We were asked “what exactly is the point of this show?”Answer: social media is an underutilized tool by police. Not just police, but firefighters, DA’s, nurses, military, ambulance, teachers; front liners. This show is designed to reveal the full potential of true communication through long discussion format. This will give a voice to these professions that often go unheard from those that do it. Furthermore, it’s designed to show authentic and genuine response; rather than the tiresome “look, cops petting puppies” approach. We are avoiding the sound bite narrative so the first responders and those associated can give fully articulated thought. The idea is the viewers both inside and outside these career fields can gain realistic and genuine perspective to make informed opinions on the content. Overall folks, we want to earn your respect, help create the change you want and need together through all channels of the criminal justice system and those that directly impact it. This comes from the heart with nothing but positive intentions. That is what this show is about. Disclaimer: The views shared by this podcast, the hosts, and/or the guests do not in anyway reflect their employer or the policies of their employer. Any views shared or content of this podcast is of their opinion and not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company, individual or anyone or anything. 2 Cops 1 Donut is not responsible and does not verify for accuracy any of the information contained in the podcast series available for listening on this site or for watching shared on this site or others. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. This podcast does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services.
2 Cops 1 Donut
LIVE STREAMED! From Crisis to Communication in Law Enforcement
Listen to this recorded LIVE STREAM or head to our YouTube Channel and watch along. This is about Police misconduct and accountability that take center stage as we cover a broad range of issues facing law enforcement today. The 9-5 workday is dead, and remote work is the future. Hear why experts predict this monumental shift will revolutionize the workforce. We bring in Von Kliem from Force Science to help us shed light on controversial incidents, such as a case involving a San Antonio officer, and discuss the systemic hurdles in hiring and maintaining professional standards in policing. Von's insights, coupled with our audience's engaging contributions, lay the groundwork for a thoughtful exploration of integrity within the ranks.
Our discussion doesn't shy away from the hot-button topics that spark debate. We tackle the complexities of police pursuits and the harsh realities officers face during traffic stops, particularly with the added pressure of adverse weather. Vaughn helps us navigate the intricacies of legal standards in Texas, offering a lens into how officers must juggle between public safety and legal obligations. We also examine the growing need for empathy and effective communication in crisis management, making a case for improved officer training that incorporates crisis counseling techniques.
The conversation wraps up with a heartfelt look at the culture of law enforcement, dispelling myths and emphasizing the dedication of officers who are committed to serving their communities. It's a nod to the unsung heroes behind the badge and a reminder that real change comes with honest accountability and the courage to learn from each encounter. This episode is a testament to the power of dialogue and the collective effort to foster trust and understanding between law enforcement and the community.
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Speaker 2:that was uh alan that just walked out of the picture. As you can see, one of us is not on here. Eric is out. We'll call it vacation.
Speaker 3:I hope you out for sorry, my wall went to sleep behind me there, benny hey, no worries, no worries.
Speaker 2:I was just telling everybody that.
Speaker 3:Uh, eric is that it thinks it's time to go home I'm just telling everybody that uh, eric is out of pocket, can you? Hear me, I can actually hear you now. Welcome tonight, guys. Tonight we have Benning Sweatland and Alan Nelson and we have somebody else joining us hopefully here in a few minutes.
Speaker 2:We've got Vaughn from Force Science. He'll be on in a couple minutes. If you don't know who Vaughn is, I'm going to give him a couple minutes once he gets on to give his fascinating resume of what he does. In the meantime, if you want to look up Force Science outstanding organization, I'm not going to go into it. I don't want to spoil what Vaughn's going to talk about. But most law enforcement officers that are out there motivated, trying to do better and to get into stuff. They usually know what Force Science is. But thank you all for joining us tonight. I know Alan's got some videos queued up. We'll wait for Vaughn to get on and go from there.
Speaker 3:I'd say constitutional country girls here. Mr Billfold's been here for like three hours, Three Hours Ozark Moon, Tim Owens, Tim Harrison Brock. So you guys are going to have to bear with just me and Banning, because Eric is off playing in some crystal clear water and he didn't invite everybody. So we're stuck here. So you're gonna have to just sit with us, as mr billfold says hopefully, eric's enjoying himself.
Speaker 2:he, uh, he works hard on a full-time job and he and he does this, uh, even a lot more time on top of that. So he, he dedicates a lot of his time to the show and he is two cops one donut and I and I'm a, I'm a small little side piece, and so is Alan. We just try to emphasize what Eric is doing out there and he's doing a great job, um, but again, we're just waiting on Vaughn to log in. Once Vaughn gets logged in, we'll, uh, we'll definitely get the show on the road for sure.
Speaker 3:Well, we've already gotten a. Mr Billfold gifted a membership for level one and then Gina Maria gifted a membership. So evidently you're not a lot like it, doesn't? You don't get to get it, it just goes to somebody. Sure, we're learning how all this stuff works and Mr Billfold, it folds.
Speaker 2:Good to see you virtually for now. I know someday I'm sure we'll meet in person. Perry, I see you're on here. Everybody that's on. I appreciate it. Uh, we're gonna get this exciting and popping here in just a just a couple moments once, once von comes into the lobby with us or into the room with us.
Speaker 3:Tim thinks you need to change your name to the bearded wander.
Speaker 2:I've I've heard a lot, of, a lot of nicknames in the past. That's a good one too. That was, that was good.
Speaker 3:Miss Jones, Good evening from Eric's house. Well, hello. Thanks for taking care of the daughters so they can go and enjoy a little husband wife time. As you know, those young, that young couple needs to do that. So thank you for taking care of them.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. We got to give, got to give our boy Eric a break every once in a while. The guy's a hundred miles an hour, burning on both ends. I hope he's 100, relaxing with his better half and just enjoying life like you should be I agree, I agree what's uh, if you've got something queued up for me, I do?
Speaker 3:um, let me so we. We had a hot topic put on the on the plate yesterday. Eric brought up this topic and let me figure out how to make it play again, because, oh, there it is. I figured it out, and so how would you feel as a fellow officer if you find out that an officer gives a homeless man dog feces in a sandwich?
Speaker 2:Man, you know, I briefly saw that skimming in between work things and it just absolutely disgusted me. I don't know the entire story behind it so it's hard for me to comment on it, but obviously just the headline.
Speaker 3:So this young man was a San Antonio police officer when this all went down. It's actually an older story, but what he did a couple different things the whole he considered them pranks. And then there was an incident at the department during bike patrol, he smeared brown tapioca-like substance on the seat wall and so ultimately, through his local, he challenged the department to get back on and they said they could not fire him. And did I lose you Banning? No, I'm here, ok. And and then later on, in 2020, so that four years later, florence Floresville PD hired him and they were not aware of his background. He no longer works for Floresville PD.
Speaker 2:My whole thing just to interject that. How in the hell aren't you aware of somebody's background when you're a law enforcement agency? And that's what you do before you freaking hire them Especially in the last four years.
Speaker 3:I think it was two legislative updates ago that you had to go through any T Cole, like any of your background. You had to show documentation and go through the efforts of that investigation.
Speaker 2:It just makes me sick. Go through the efforts of that investigation. It just makes me sick. We're sitting here fighting an uphill battle on ones that go out here and do this kind of stuff that tarnishes the badge and when you look at the badge in a whole man what it stands for and what it truly is for the people when it's utilized correctly, like it is the majority of the time and then you've got somebody like this. That just makes you want to take people like that out in an alley and have a conversation with them. That's all yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, you know there's so many times in law enforcement where you know there's a situation shown that the other officer didn't step in and say something. But how many times have you stepped in and said something I can't? I mean, I can't even speak to that. It's probably once a week where it's like, hey, we're not going to do that or that's not the best way we're going to handle this, and and so uh like um I just there's not even words for it. It was. I've been getting um. I recently got added to the Facebook feed for Two Cops, one Donut, and so if you're wanting to know how to like the show and subscribe um, any of the platforms, go ahead and uh like Two Cops, one Donut, but um I, I mean, it's like two cops, one donut. It's like literally almost every two minutes somebody makes a comment on there about this. I don't know what the numbers are at, but I would say it's way up there because it's just ridiculous.
Speaker 2:It is the mentality and I get it. There's a lot of cities that are that are harder than others to get people hired, but when we start doing this warm body in a seat, they've got the basic, this basic, this basic, this perfect. Get them out there, let them go out and start taking calls. I'm sorry, but to my professional standards, guys out there and these are, these are, you know, departments that are usually accreditation or have accreditation and they go through all these, all these checks and backgrounds. But we've got to be better. Now, for the most part, a lot of agencies do it right. So I'm not, I'm not hammering all departments here, but there's a there's a good handful of them out there that really need to slow their role in hiring folks. We may be short for a minute, but let's make sure we get the right people in there.
Speaker 2:And then we've got to fix this God awful pay. That's that's going wrong. You know across the country as well, and I hate to say it, but sometimes you get what you pay for. You really do. You know, I hate to say that. And there should be just, and it is at most places that that level needs to be at a high, to be at a high, high standard, no matter what's, you know, getting deposited in the bank every two weeks because you're sworn to serve um and you know what that pay is before going into it. And if you go in, you know, with those type of shenanigans, uh, you need to be, they need to build a new prison and you need to be laid within that foundation before they put the prison down. And just it pisses me off to no end, uh, to see cops like this across the country and then and then with it, you know, and that's the other thing, and it just it, just it really pisses me off. Pardon my French on that, but that kind of stuff just drives me insane.
Speaker 3:Well, and we're already, you know, fighting an uphill battle. You know, you know just the topic. I got asked twice on my travels here. So today I'm in my headquarters in Alameda, california, with RGB Spectrum and as I'm traveling from Texas to here, everybody's like, well, you're not going to Los Angeles with all that craziness going on. And sadly we have another major incident this year with emergency responders. And how long is it going to take us to overcome that nonsense on poor management of incident? And you know it's not on, it's on a whole large group. You know we can get into politics and all that and we don't talk that here on this show, but it's, it's not on any one person. There were a lot of people at fault and all the different incidents this year. It just seems like we keep uh, stump, stumping our toes before we get ahead of any of these incidents.
Speaker 2:So does your building there have a fire suppression system? It?
Speaker 3:does and what's crazy. So before, when I traveled here a year ago, when I first took this job, I literally spent four hours doing training on how to self-evacuate, or like we had to have earthquake drills, earthquake drills, just to be in the building.
Speaker 2:Man, yeah, no, I have no doubt in the insurance that's, that's a whole. I mean we could do a topic on that too and I can bring in some insurance guys, but the whole, the whole insurance thing. Just from the uh, from the beginning of when I got my driver's license until now, when you watch these rates and I'm not an insurance expert, let me throw that out there but going from all the uninsured folks that are out there and raising the rates on other ones and that teetering goes back and forth, it doesn't matter even how good of a driver you are anymore. I mean your rates are crazy. And forget it if you've got a 16-, 16 year old or a new driver in the house and getting these cars.
Speaker 2:You know, I learned that a couple of years ago uh, I was adding a new, a new vehicle to my policy, not to get off the beaten path. Uh, because I gave my son my truck and I decided to add a Hellcat uh to the policy. And uh, and just having him in the household, just the insurance on that type of vehicle goes up to another car payment. It's just like what in the heck is going on here. I mean, there's no crashes, no accidents, no, nothing. Good driving all the way, anyway, I could go on that for days, but just the crap. That goes on like that throughout the country.
Speaker 3:These insurance companies like that throughout the country, these insurance companies Well, pam says something here and it's because we keep lowering our standards when we go back to that other incident, but I think it goes along with everything. We're lowering our standards. I can't say that it's just law enforcement. I think we're lowering the standards and the products that we're purchasing from the store because we we we're not holding people accountable on what we're doing and, and a lot of it is because we don't have an option.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 2:You know, absolutely, and I'm just kind of looking over these comments. You know, on that top right one, from who is that? Stan the man? I'm saying that wrong, I apologize, my eyes are getting old. No, insurance in my state is a huge fine and they can arrest you. You know that's technically. You can do that in Texas as well. I can't speak on all the states because it's a. It's a class C violation. The only things that you cannot arrest for for for for violations here in a moving violation is what is it? The open container texting while driving?
Speaker 3:and running Stops are the red light or seatbelt. Seatbelt, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's just, but anyway, man, or speeding too. So speeding you can't arrest unless you, unless you articulate. You know reckless driving and whatnot. But I get, you know. I get questions from all over the country Like, hey Banning, I had a cousin that was in Dallas, texas, last summer and they left a nightclub. He was the D and D driver. They got lost in the neighborhood, got turned around and then they were stopped by an agency. It wasn't necessarily Dallas, there's a lot of little cities that push up to it and ultimately he was arrested, or what they call in Texas, in Stantard, for no license plate light. And there he is. There's the man right there. How's it going, juan Good? Thanks for waiting, absolutely's the man right there? How's it going, juan? Good Thanks for waiting, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Glad to have you.
Speaker 2:The Texas law is in reference to what you can and can't arrest for on traffic violations. Going over that and telling him the stories that I receive on LinkedIn, sometimes on a daily basis, on people. Is it true that you can be arrested in Texas for no license plate on your car? Yeah, nine times out of 10, if that cop's going to do an actionable item on that or enforcement, it's going to be a citation. But yes, technically they can be in standard and brought before a judge and that's what that law states. So, yeah, people can actually go to jail and bond out on a class C small violation and just I mean it's small piddly stuff, but it's in the law. We don't write the law. But without further ado, I'm going to take a couple minutes For those of you that don't know Vaughn. First of all, vaughn, I appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to even bless us with your presence, brother, but without further ado, vaughn, if you can just give us a little background, let these amazing folks know who you are.
Speaker 6:First of all, thanks for having me. I think this is my second time on the show. The first one I was stuck in a hotel and you guys invited me. I was like yeah, I'm in. I tried to hang something on the wall or curtain or something behind me so it didn't look like I was in a historic hotel. So I'm Vaughn Kleem. I'm the Chief Consulting and Communications Officer over at Force Science. We're involved in most of the high profile cases in the country. My job is to do litigation, consulting. So we work with the investigators and we work with the attorneys to first identify what the law is and believe it or not. We're having a hard time doing that.
Speaker 6:Some of these states that don't know in criminal cases how to properly charge a cop for an on-duty shooting, because sometimes it's the first time that's happened. How I ended up there? I was a cop for about 10 years full-time. I did what most of your audience who are cops did. I worked patrol. I worked high-risk narcotics service for a while mid-level narcotics, three-level narcotics, and then uh ran our dt program, our defense tactics program, our de-escalation program. Uh ultimately worked on swat for a little bit not a lot of time there. I did mostly narcotics, but sometime on swat became an attorney.
Speaker 6:As an attorney I was a senior prosecutor, I was a special assistant uS attorney fora, while I was a police legal advisor for maybe five different chiefs. I was a military attorney. Ultimately I worked at the Pentagon. I wrote policy use of force policy for the DOD and for the Army as a member of the Army staff Retired out of the military, and all that time I continued to work as a civilian cop, part-time, like as a reserve, so I'd go back weekends and holidays and just kind of keep my feet wet. And then worked for Lexapol as a senior policy attorney after I retired and then moved over to Force Science where I was now the executive editor of Force Science News and then moved over to litigation consulting and then chief communications and consulting officers. So right now I'm kind of a conductor.
Speaker 6:I I pull together all the the, the areas that we work on and expertise just for the audience is we make sure we understand the legal aspects, police practices, um, use of force, spread assessments and responses and then human performance, meaning the psychological, physiological and environmental influences on decision-making. So a big part of what I do now is try to explain to attorneys and even investigators, sort of what cops know what is it they're thinking about, as these things are sort of unfolding in real time. And I'll just end on this we're always pushing in our litigation, consulting and in our training there's this concept of honest accountability, because we want to hold officers accountable. So you'll hear me keep bringing up honest accountability, which is distinct from corrupt accountability or politicized accountability. And it requires two things One, the standards have to be clear enough that an officer can predict the lawfulness of their own behavior.
Speaker 6:So we look at the word and say would anybody even know what that meant or how that was supposed to guide their conduct? And then the second and maybe most important part for what we do is our unique offer at Force Sciences we make sure the expectations on officers aren't beyond human performance expectations. So, uh, when we, especially when we're looking at video, we remember videos are not a proxy for the officer's experience. So the video brings us important information, but we always, we always keep separate that the officer's experience is completely unrelated to the video. That's just like another witness.
Speaker 6:And so we look at the human performance aspects that officers bring into that as any other human would and start analyzing those cases, never letting any of our clients forget that that's a human involved and not metal and glass. So that's a little bit about me super fast. Thanks again for having me man Appreciate it Absolutely, absolutely. We have a melting pot of an audience. A little bit about me super fast, um thanks again for having me.
Speaker 2:man, appreciate it absolutely, absolutely. We have a a melting pot of an audience, and that's what I love. Uh, we have everything from law enforcement out here to to other attorneys that get on there, to, uh, to, to homemakers, to, to everybody, and that's what we're. We're trying to bridge that gap in between law enforcement and the community that we all love to serve and protect. So, vaughn, again, thank you for your time and, alan, I'm going to ask you to get that first video up and, vaughn, just like last time, I haven't seen or even know the title of any of these videos We'll start watching the video and, if you need something, paused to get more clarity and reverse it.
Speaker 2:Obviously we're the audience, just like the people watching. We're getting the same exact view. We're hearing everything that they hear. If I know the background of the story, or if I've seen it, or if any of the three of us have seen it, we'll say hey, we're going to stay out of this and we'll let the others answer on it. Just to be correct with it, I like to go into these blind. So let's go ahead without further ado, alan, and get that first video queued up and we'll go ahead and hit play.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're working on hitting buttons here. Okay, biggie size. Biggie size.
Speaker 5:Copy a pursuit Passing 55 traffic point on northbound, northbound on D-19. Okay, go for it. Speeds are 50 miles an hour. Speeds are 50. How's the road? Flat but clear. Turning on the.
Speaker 3:I'm going to try something.
Speaker 2:It's laggy, ed Vaughn, is it laggy on your end?
Speaker 6:You guys are not. The video is yes, Okay.
Speaker 3:I'm going to try something, so just bear with me a minute.
Speaker 2:The only thing I know how to do on a computer is control-alt-delete shut it down, restart it. So we'll let Alan professionally handle this situation. That's going on. I'm not your guy for it. I'm not your guy for it. Hey, alan, don't hit play yet while you're working on that Vaughn, why don't you while we're waiting? We got an event coming up next week. Are you able to say what you're going to be doing or talk about that? Yeah, let me.
Speaker 6:So we're going to be heading out to the SHOT Show. So we're going to be heading out to the SHOT Show and we are going to be teaching at the Law Enforcement Education sort of a mini conference there. I think it's the LEADS program, and what I'm looking at now is we're going to be working with Virtra. Virtra is a high-tech simulator. It's one of the most accurate simulators on the market right now.
Speaker 6:I'm working with Lon Bartel, who works for Virtra, and what we're doing is understanding constitutional policing and human performance, and we're going to be talking about how the integration of the constitutional standard of reasonableness is, or should be, reflected in our training, our operations, our investigations and then our post, our evaluation, basically cases, and we have about an hour and a half. So we're going to go through it pretty quickly and, if you guys can make it out, if you're going to be at SHOTS, just stop by and see us. Lon and I have been teaching courses together and we do, I think, a pretty good job of blending the reality of human performance and the cases we're seeing and Lon works with us as well as an expert witness agree the law, the human performance issues and then the actual methods of instructions or the advanced instructional methods of basically how to teach so that officers retain the information. So it's going to be a quick hit. We're going to cover a lot of ground, but if you guys are out of shot, so please make sure you make it out there.
Speaker 2:That's going to be understanding constitutional policing and human performance with Force Science and Virtra Outstanding and I'm definitely going to be there Found out today that I've got the latitude to be able to go out, so I'll be going out and representing my company out there and doing a lot of development. So, looking forward to it, I'm definitely going to come and watch it and I'll be able to come back and report to everybody on how it goes. I know it'll be an amazing show that Vaughn's putting on, so can't wait for that and, alan, if you're ready, I guess we can go ahead and start.
Speaker 5:South being 55, traffic white cone northbound, northbound on D-19. Okay, go for it. Speeds are 50 miles an hour.
Speaker 3:So, up until this point, what are you guys seeing in this video? We try not to read the title up at the top. We're just kind of trying to take in all the information. What's one of the biggest situations to be aware of at this point?
Speaker 2:Obviously, they're in an area of freezing conditions. They got snow on the ground and, being a guy from Texas, went to high school up in Ohio, being a guy from Texas. Now, looking at that, I mean that's just raising my hairs a little bit. Hopefully there's enough. Nothing's frozen on the ground. I just worry about collisions, obviously, and all the other people that are involved not wanting to be just because they're going to the store. They're coming home from work, they're going to work and now this pursuit is coming through. So I always look at that safety aspect on what is worth pursuing and what is not. Do we know who this person is? Can we write a warrant later on and get him under a safer situation, or is this something that we need to absolutely take this person into custody? And that's just Banning's opinion, vaughn.
Speaker 6:No, I think, I think you're right. That balance, that constant balance between, you know, safety of the community and then cops actually doing their jobs, which is, you know, from a traditional law enforcement standpoint, that's catching bad guys right. So there's a lot of competing government interests. This comes up in a lot of cases where we don't know the outcome of this video yet. But if there's a bad outcome, we have one side who will get up on the stand and say they should have just let him go, we could have got him another day. Our thought of that is that might be what happens, or it might be that if you let him go today, he kills the next cop that tries to pick him up.
Speaker 6:At some point there's going to be a confrontation, whether the confrontation occurs today on the street or it occurs at his doorstep. So your point's well taken. The officer on the ground has to be checking road conditions, traffic conditions and then balancing that against the fact that he still has a job to do and the community expects him to do it. This is a real-time decision. We've all been there where you're chasing somebody and they just blow right through a stop sign or a stoplight and and the cross traffic is thick and you're just like, yeah, okay, no, I'm done, this is not, this isn't worth it. We're uh, and you know that when you see it, um, so it's a constant balance. You know, I'll leave it at that at this point. It's a constant balance.
Speaker 3:I'll leave it at that at this point. No, I agree with you, Tim. He answered my question very bluntly, as he always does, and I love you, Tim. He's got his lights on and the car didn't pull over. That's right. That's exactly what's going on in this video at this point. But then he does make a good point. He doesn't really have a safe area to pull over yet. So how does that play into? When you're trying to pull somebody over, you know how far is too far to go to find a safe spot to pull over. Yep.
Speaker 2:And I've seen, you know, just going back and again.
Speaker 2:I don't have the background Vaughn has. I've got 21 years in law enforcement no-transcript. Let's go on to the next charge. So you know a lot of it's opinion based when you look at the letter of the law of what the statute states in Texas under the penal code law of what the statute states in Texas under the penal code. It's evading either way when you fail to yield in a motor vehicle at the response of emergency lights and sirens of a well-marked law enforcement vehicle. So I see that just in Texas and I'm assuming around the country it's probably going to be the same thing. It's going to be the DA's discretion, the law enforcement agency, just so people know they're always going to put the highest charge that they have there and the DA will determine whether or not all the elements of the offense are there, et cetera, et cetera and what fits and what doesn't, and they may decide to knock one down. And again, that's at a much higher level in the justice system than I've been educated on, but just from witnessing it. Yeah.
Speaker 6:I think that's right and it's always in the cop test. Remember, we're talking about probable cause standard, right? So when do you have probable cause or reason to believe he's violated the law? Well, yeah, as soon as you're required under the law and you look at the state to immediately pull over to the right. Now, if you don't do that, there's probable cause to believe you violated the statute.
Speaker 6:Right now, all the things we talk about finding finding a well-lit condition or a safe place to stop or a public area because you didn't know if it was really the police those are all things in mitigation. Those are all things a prosecutor to consider when exercising their prosecutorial discretion, or if you plead guilty and exercise in sentencing, right. But from a cop standpoint, the question becomes when do you have probable cause to make the arrest? But more than that, forget the arrest or not arrest, you start looking at what is a cop thinking when someone does not immediately pull over to the right, what are the reasonable inferences a cop can make? Because they don't know. So everything's an educated guess and it just has to be a reasonable guess based on training, education, experience. And so right now, what I'm starting to think about is what's the initial traffic violation as compared to the level of resistance I'm seeing, and when you have a level of resistance that's disproportionate to the suspected violation, then we train cops to start adding other possibilities.
Speaker 6:Not that you know, when you're doing mind reading, maybe it's a medical, you know, it could be a lot of things. But ultimately we don't want cops to assume the best in these scenarios. Right, he's just looking for a safe place to pull over. That's just on the list of possibilities. As they start consciously imagining the other possibilities, maybe they do nothing other than notify for additional units. Get a helicopter up, start trying to get some containment. It doesn't mean you're doing a pit maneuver already, but you should start on the. As you're weighing the scale, you start putting more rocks. On that side of this is a level of resistance that disproportionate to a tag light violation and that should mean something to the cop.
Speaker 2:Yep and if he is doing a pit maneuver, just so that the audience can understand. Let's say, hypothetically it's me as the peace officer in this vehicle behind him and I don't know the town we're in. I don't know any of the background of the story, but if I know if it's a bad enough charge other than the abating, if I've got something else in there and I know I've got an elementary school or a high school ahead and it's during school zone hours and there's a possibility of somebody or child getting hurt, I would like to think that I would end that as soon as possible to reduce that chance. So an officer has to think about that as well. While driving, communicating, running the MDC.
Speaker 2:This may have started off as a call to where, when he arrived on scene, the pursuit started. It could have been family violence, it could have been anything, it could have been shoplifting, whatever. So the officer just so the general public that's watching understands has got a million things going through his mind. Obviously the driver that's not yielding. I have no clue what's going through his mind, but he's got a million things in there. And a clue what's going through his mind, but he's got a million things in there and one of them is I don't want to go to jail right now and I can understand that. As a human being, you know that fight or flight mentality of what's going on in their head, but it all equates to be. It could be a very dangerous situation. I'm not sure how this is going to end up, but I'll stop talking. We'll. We'll figure out how that ends right now.
Speaker 3:And I definitely agree. Stay on the man. Uh, we'll just leave it at that but here we go.
Speaker 1:See you there. How's the road? Uh, wet but clear, Turn it on to kettle.
Speaker 5:Turn it on kettle they. Where's the order at? They're on Ketta West at.
Speaker 3:D-19.
Speaker 2:Okay, so at this point, why do you think at this point he's made the decision?
Speaker 6:to go ahead and stop this situation. I went last one. I'm gonna let you take this one first, bro. Uh well, I think we gotta remember that he's also got to consider his own safety considerations, right? So the timing of it is he's also driving on those crazy roads. So if he's going to be, if he's going to be expected to do his his law enforcement duties right, which is catch that guy um, he's the entire time. He's doing a cost benefits trade-off analysis, right Is the? Is the benefit of this chase worth the risk? Right? And at some point, when the roads are no longer clear here he's moving into residential areas, he's got to drive on that same snow At some point. He's. He's just done with the risk just done with the risk.
Speaker 3:No, I completely agree. I think at a certain point in this scenario, when you look at what we saw previously when he was, you know there was a lot of traffic. Now we have a solid, covered road, less bar ditches, things like that, and so if you do a pit maneuver here, I think you have a lot less people that can be involved than previously. That, in my opinion, was maybe a state highway. And so I'm going to let it play out just a little bit more.
Speaker 4:So earlier there on Teta West, the D-19.
Speaker 3:So in this scenario, what you've just seen, what do you do next?
Speaker 2:Just for safety. We do or don't know. We don't know how many occupants are in the vehicle. I know he didn't have that dark a tent on there, but I'm going to treat it as more than one, just with my training experience in law enforcement, and I'm going to, as quickly as I can, reposition my vehicle so it's safe for everybody. Don't know how this is going to end. He's ultimately decided to make this pit maneuver, hopefully following within his policies and procedures at his police department or sheriff's office, and get repositioned. And then I'm going to. I'm going if it were me. I'm going's no weapons involved.
Speaker 2:Temporarily detain him, figure out what's going on, make sure that there's no medical. Again, I don't know the history on this. I've unfortunately gotten into one of these and the driver was deaf and had a lot of issues speaking and was used to seeing lights and sirens and ambulances on main thoroughfares in a large metropolitan area and didn't think I was behind him to stop him. So it went for about a mile but it was quickly discovered he just had an impairment and once that impairment was discovered, we were able to start communicating, digressing the situation and allowing him to go on his way. But we've got to run that in our heads in law enforcement. We don't know if there may be a medical background reason on why this is going on.
Speaker 3:This is a great question by Tim Wait. Don't most departments have to ask to pit like a supervisor, or is it just a choice any officer can make?
Speaker 2:So and I'll just add to that on what I know of it, across the country there's policies and procedures, mostly in these municipalities and sheriff's offices. They will go by and if it falls within that policy and they can make a judgment call right then and there, instead of exacerbating more time they can, they can execute that, that pit maneuver to stop it right then and there, as long as they can articulate in their report later on what's going on. While communicating with communication centers and I'm sure supervisors are aware of the pursuit A supervisor in most agencies can terminate a pursuit at any time. They usually are paying attention and know what's going on.
Speaker 3:I would completely agree. I think at all times you're supposed to follow departmental policy, but there are times when you have to make decisions. And the reason why you become a police officer you have to do your job and do the work. And constitutional country girl news such a long name my tongue is twisted every time I say it. I want to pit people Every time I drive. I completely agree. Especially on the way across San Francisco Today, I felt bad for the Uber driver. So Alright, let's move forward and see what they have. No.
Speaker 4:Hands up, hands up. All in successful position, all in successful position.
Speaker 5:Now we're at it Still on cattle, or did we get on TV?
Speaker 4:I'm channel. We're making contact now.
Speaker 5:Clear Making contact EMS ASAP. Ems ASAP 4-8, send EMS priority one. He caught himself in his neck Clear Cut to the neck. Ems priority one Zach Clear.
Speaker 2:Cut to the NAC-US for 81. I'm going to take two seconds of this. I have a problem safety-wise just how I instruct officers being in some bad situations in the past to get out of that vehicle and immediately approach, unless they have really good knowledge of who this person is, which I don't think that any way. Approaching the vehicle that fast, directly after a pit to me I have a problem with looking at that and definitely that would be some, unless that's how they do at this agency is a norm. But I want to allow the dust to settle, get our positions and call that person out the less chance of somebody getting hurt. Just an educated opinion on that, von. What's your thoughts on the ending of that?
Speaker 6:Yes, I would just and I hate to say this, we do this every time is I need to hear from the officers, because one thing I did see is remember the officer's SUV was in front of the suspect vehicle at the end of the pit and then they crossed paths. I have to imagine that the officers are looking very intently at that driver as they're rolling back past each other, and if they saw something that looked like the medical emergency, looked like the guy was unconscious, that would make a lot of sense to me that they're going to get up there quick. They did have their guns out, so I would just ask them you know, help me understand your decision, because I suspect all of them at the end of a high risk, at the end of a car chase, is going to a high risk car stop. Something. Something changed their mind, something was different. So I just find out from the officers what was it?
Speaker 6:And then, watching that that in-car dash cam, I at least saw that they had an opportunity to take in information that we don't have from the camera, opportunity to take in information that we don't have from the camera. I just want to know what that is, and it may make perfect sense once they tell you which, by the way, for all of you, when we look at cases, it's sometimes just a single fact that an officer knew that will change the entire outcome of our analysis. So that's where I would start is figure out what is it you guys saw that made that decision. Make sense to you.
Speaker 2:Alan, you have thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:I agree. You know the one thing that kind of spoke out to me as I'm watching it. You know this is not in my neck of the woods of Texas and where I'm from, this is not an everyday environment for me, and so if I'm dealing with snow and ice, sometimes you get lost in the environment you're working in and not dealing with the norm. And so if all of a sudden I'm dealing with snow and ice, it's hard to stay focused in the moment of keeping yourself safe and doing it the way you should be doing it, versus getting sucked into the incident, if that makes sense what I'm saying.
Speaker 6:Yeah, absolutely. Supervisor is always I mean, you hear this a lot like slow things down, create space, buy time, and you're buying time not just because it's safer for you to assess, but you're buying information, and the more information we have. Create space, buy time. And you're buying time not just because it's safer for you to assess, but you're buying information, and the more information we have, the better decisions we make. So you know, for these guys to have closed the gap so quickly again, that seems inconsistent, with all of us thinking, hey, at the end of this car chase, that's not likely how we would train a cop to do it. Something's different. I'd like to know what that is. Um, and I'm actually pretty confident in this one, they probably had something, but I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's something. We don't know about this, but you know, if there's blood coming from his neck and you know, I will say you know visibility, things like that. If they were able to see and recognize its blood from, you know as far away as they are, you know I can see how they rush to it.
Speaker 6:So Sure Think about from a from a liability standpoint. I hate to do that. But if, if I find out that these cops when they crashed all the guy was non-conscious, I mean they created, they created the medical emergency right. So now we we create it, we we take responsibility for it, right, we've got to start rendering medical attention as soon as we have sufficient containment and control to do that. If I found out in their reports that as he went by he was unconscious and they decided to stand back and do a high-risk felony car stop and he dies like that, well that's a problem too. So I think they've got to make that judgment call on the other ones on the scene. So that's what I'd be looking for.
Speaker 3:This is a you know, tim. I think the pit was completely unnecessary. Maybe they did not know the area snow on the side of the roads. There's still no place to pull over safely. In my opinion, and I you know, one of the things that we do here in the lives is not so much secondhand quarterback of the incident is we're trying to call it as we see it, as the call comes out, and I truly think in this scenario there's some things of unknown, because in the upper north, how many times do you see a two man unit? I think we're we're working an incident that there's some more knowns that we're not aware of, and so they may have felt like it was the time that the situation maybe to be stopped.
Speaker 6:Yeah, when you talk about intent here and I think Tim's bringing that up is like when we're doing a risk assessment, part of of the risk assessments, what's the intent of this guy? We're trying to do a pit maneuver on um he, he, instead of going right, he made multiple turns and I think this was cut, so the chase was much longer. So when you start to see a guy who's supposed to pull over to the right, instead he's making a left and he's making another left and he's accelerating away. The officers don't know what's in his head. But now, now all they can do is make reasonable inferences about that conduct. And what cops do is they look for, as Lynn Weston will say, from SLC Squared. You guys should be following SLC Squared if you're not.
Speaker 6:But Lynn Weston was talking about baselines and anomalies off the baseline. All that means is, as a cop, you start to get used to what normal looks like. Right, there's a, a range of normal, and when you see somebody who's acting outside that range of normal, those are called anomalies, right? Somebody who goes turns left instead of pulling over to the right, well, that's an anomaly off the baseline. There was probably quite a few of those here. So the idea that you don't do the pit maneuver because it wasn't sure if there was a place to turn over one. I think we're handicapped because we didn't see the full chase, how many places there were to pull over. So I'm not, I'm not prepared to make that assumption yet, but I would say I saw him turn into a center lane and make a left hand turn, which tells me when he had plenty of straightaway to go, which tells me it would be reasonable for the officer to infer he's not trying to find a safe place, he's actually trying to evade.
Speaker 2:At that point, and I also don't know the speeds Right and I'd also don't know the speeds Right, and that that's one thing I wish we did have. I wish I wish once we we gave our our two cents opinion on these things with our, our combined experience. I wish we could sit there and look at a a case file on on how it's. You know already how it's already gone to CID after other things were unlocked. What did we miss Just because that's a video? That's a small little picture window of what's going on with limited information. I love to be able to see in-story stuff based on the officer's reaction during the actual situation that's going on in this incident. So, vaughn, I know you get to do that with all kinds of things. I do my due diligence and after we get off this, I'll go pull each one of these videos and then I'll Google and try to look up whatever's been publicly available, but you're not always going to find the information that you're looking for on those. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Vaughn, I I kind of want your opinion on this one. Ryan Holzen Holzen, the police chases should only be for violent felonies. How would you respond to that?
Speaker 6:Certainly for violent felonies. Well one. I'm going to try to be the most reasonable person in these conversations, and I join other reasonable people in that, and I'll say this it depends on where it's occurring at. But I can tell you here's what the challenge is, and I mentioned it earlier when somebody runs from a suspected misdemeanor or a suspected tag violation, just a traffic ordinance the fleeing from that is disproportionate to the underlying offense, the suspected underlying offense. Cops see so frequently that when someone runs from you they are not running for the misdemeanor, they're not running for the tagline of the traffic. It is reasonable to infer that when someone evades they are evading for at least a felony. And so perhaps it's not a violent felony, maybe it's a stolen car, maybe it's a you know name, your felony, nonviolent felony.
Speaker 6:But society as a whole has to decide are we rule of law or not? Because, officers, when somebody runs, it's the traditional law and order interests are crime detection, crime prevention, law enforcement, the preservation, identity, discovery, identity and preservation of evidence, warrants, executions, um and on and on, and the efficient administration of justice. So when someone takes off running in the car and you just let him go, you have just abandoned all those other law enforcement and government interests, and maybe you should. You know, in some cities it's just way too dangerous to chase people in those congested areas. You're going to lose all those other government interests because, on balance, the threat to the community is greater in the pursuit itself and so it's a constant balance that has to take place.
Speaker 6:Um, it's not an easy answer, but what we have seen obviously is those age areas that have non-pursuit policies. Bad guys quickly learn that and all they do is run. They just run and they drive recklessly and that hasn't worked out and agencies will end up reversing those because you're just training the bad guy to know if they go 21 miles an hour over the speed limit you have to back off. So definitely for violent felonies, but I think almost every cop who's been involved in the job more than two years knows that people don't run just for the underlying traffic offense itself.
Speaker 3:Sometimes they do, but that's rare. Well, and I think one of the I think it's one of the first day things we're taught in the police academy is totality of the circumstances and every situation we run into. We have to weigh, you know, the public's risk, the suspect's risk, our risks, the department's equipment's risks, and weigh those and balance it and see what's most important. And then we have a you know command staff behind us that are, you know, weighing different risks, and so I think it all comes into play. I want to give Patrick true love a little bit of love here. Banning, can you answer this one for me please, sir, let's see you know this show is.
Speaker 3:It's not our show. This show is about the people in the chat and they keep us in check and they keep the show and make it what it is, and so I very much appreciate you guys. Bear with me, I'm not the normal person reading through the comments and trying to keep the ball rolling, like Eric is a wonder at this, and so I'm working on it, guys, so I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't matter which position I put it in. I've got stuff in the way of my small screen.
Speaker 3:I've heard, if you stop safely, call 911 and convey that to the dispatcher, to the officer. What are your thoughts on stopping safely? You know, if you don't feel safe at the moment, can you call dispatch and you know, hey, I don't feel safe and you know what are your options in that if you are in the, you know if you are the person being pulled over.
Speaker 2:I don't have a problem if somebody calls nine, one one. You know today's day and age doing traffic stops. You're going to have people on the phone. I'd prefer, obviously, you know, if this is an increased risk type of stop, I'd prefer people be off the phone until we're done concluding whatever business it is on. Why the why the stop was started to begin with? Just because the old age saying are they calling somebody else to the scene? What's going on? We don't have all the details. We don't want to make this a bigger incident than what it truly is, just being a traffic stop there.
Speaker 2:For a while I was running in a completely unmarked car on duty, on patrol, doing narcotics, stolen vehicle type stuff, and I had a couple of ladies calling on and I encouraged that I'm not in a marked vehicle and the only reason I was doing the traffic stops is I couldn't get a marked unit there quick enough before this vehicle was going to roll into another jurisdiction and I already had the probable cause and one of them I had a felony warrant on and the other one already had probable cause for the stop and they thought that I was going to come up there yelling at them. They're on the phone with dispatch. Dispatch was quick enough to get with me on the radio. You know, officers, I believe we're on the phone right now with your violator that you have stopped. Just FYI. They're trying to confirm if you're a police officer and do your thing and I stand back and I've got a good view on the car and do your thing and I stand back and I've got a good view on the car. And once that confirmation was in, I saw that phone went down. I went up and concluded what I was doing on the stop itself. But you as a person, as a citizen out there, if you have doubts on an unmarked car, absolutely pull over where it's well lit.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to cover this question and how it can be construed in different ways. If you feel that you need to call 911 for your safety, call 911 for your safety, even leave it on speakerphone On these large, large agencies. If you're in a really big city, you're going to go to what's called a 911 call take center. You're going to say you're on a traffic stop, so they're going to have to look on another screen see what officers have initiated traffic. They're going to have to look at the location from what the caller is telling them and they're going to try to get this information as quick as possible, and then that police dispatcher in that large agency is going to have to transmit something, some sort of communication, to that primary officer making the stop, and it may be a little bit of a delay.
Speaker 2:So so bear with those 911 calls. If it doesn't happen instantly and you can explain to the officer he's walk, I'm on the phone with 911 to verify who you are and I don't. You know there may be some officers that take offense to that. Personally, I don't take offense to that because we're all out here to protect you guys. And if you feel threatened in a manner on a traffic stop and you want to verify some stuff for me, go ahead and verify. It Doesn't bother me a bit Vaughn. What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 6:Yeah, I mean you're. It's kind of like you're assuming the risk that you're going to be right. I hate to say this, but there's some prosecutors who will charge you if you don't pull over right away. I don't care if you call or not. There's other ones who are going to exercise prosecutorial discretion. There's to exercise prosecutorial discretion. There's cops who are going to get irritated because you didn't pull over right away, because they're supposed to choose where you stop safely. They choose. They're supposed to in training, not hit their lights until they've identified that there's a safe place for you to pull over at um. So they've already done that calculation in theory, um. So those are just kind of the second and third effects of the risk that the driver's taking if he doesn't want to pull over right away and he wants to confirm um.
Speaker 6:Now, having said that, look we, we work cases across the country and there's there's places where you know there's evidence that some of these cops are mini gangs and these people have every reason to be terrified of the police in those areas. Now, luckily, those are a minuscule amount, but I've talked to these people. I've actually talked to the supervisors of some of these agencies who want the federal government to come in because they can't control their rogue cops. So if you're in one of those areas and you're getting pulled over and you're like I'm going to go find a well-lit area, I'm going to have lots of cameras, I'm not contagious, then you're assuming risk when you do that. But it might be a risk worth assuming, is my point. Um, but ordinarily I mean pull over. When the officer tells you to pull over, he's supposed to be, or she's supposed to be, picking a spot that's safe to do that.
Speaker 6:Um, but I have also seen that where they call 911, hey, is you sure that's a cop behind me? Um, if you're in an unmarked car particularly, uh, that's just. That's just something you have to assume may happen with some regularity. It doesn't matter that you know you're the police. One of the things they did for us that was actually quite eyeopening in the academy was they had you drive a car with the windows rolled up and your radio on not super loud, just up. And you had to. You couldn't look in your mirrors, you had to know, you had to listen, for when you knew the cop was behind you and the cop, all he was going to do was pass you. That cop was passing you before you actually could hear the cop. Now I want you to imagine that you're just driving along, you're not looking in your mirrors and there's a cop buying an unmarked car with those even smaller lights going and maybe a good siren, I don't know. Sure the officer should be taking into account that that might be one of the possibilities.
Speaker 2:Sure, and I don't know the exact study, just speaking in reference to lights and sirens. I got really interested in it when I was working patrol in the Metroplex because I got to see it unfold in front of me. But technically, and I don't know the speed, there's other variables buildings, mounts, the decibel alarm or the audible from the actual police siren off. But you can outrun that siren. You can get to a speed that's so great on a highway or on a road to where your siren is. I'm not going to call it null and void, but you're outrunning it. By the time a human being can react to that siren. If you're in sight and there's not a quick enough action taken, it's a bad accident. It's just another tool on the tool belt in what we do to try to warn the public that an emergency vehicle is coming through. And they have progressed with that with different ambulance companies and different law enforcement vehicles to where they're installing things called thumpers and these are actual decibeled uh base element type sound wave.
Speaker 2:To where I'm guilty of it in high school, to where I had, you know, 12 solo bear 12, uh speakers in the back, to where it was probably why I'm hard of hearing now that in the Marine Corps uh to where.
Speaker 2:If an ambulance got behind me, if I didn't catch it in a mirror and I wasn't paying attention is because I was the goofball that was driving by the house making the crap shake off the.
Speaker 2:And now I get pissed off every time somebody drives by here and does it and I'm like God, that was me 30 years ago but as technology is getting better on the sirens, but it's just, it's just another sense that we're trying to give out for a human body to pick up to either get out of the way or yield and Vaughn. That's a very good point. We did the same thing in the Academy and they had little slippers that they put over the mirrors all of them and blinders on the side of the glasses and you had to, basically you had to tell when that, when that cop was behind you from going around a small road course, not even fast and it's not as soon as you think it would be, and it's kind of scary. And that made me think about that. Every time I initiated my lights and siren to go help somebody my reactionary gap on coming up on things. It can get dangerous really quick.
Speaker 3:And the last thing you want to do is take a life going to save a life.
Speaker 3:So, um so mr bill fold asked the question from last week's show.
Speaker 3:We watched a situation in florida, and florida implemented a new law on how far a pedestrian has to stay back from an incident.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you saw the football player or the, the Olympic athlete that got too close to the scene and ends up getting arrested. And so Florida has a 25 foot rule on how close you can be to the get you know, to the actual officers doing their job. And so Mr Belfold wants to know what your opinions are on that Vaughn and what are the parameters when there's a. We all were taught the you know 21 foot rule, which we all know is uh, a give and take uh, but you know setting a number to it is a problem for me, because I think sometimes the public and the crowd can be closer when you're working a a big uh after a Super Bowl or something event, and then you know there's when you're working a big after Super Bowl or something event, and then you know there's when you're you know it's a whole nother safety issue when you let the public get you know beyond 30 feet from you, you know how do you know what's too close?
Speaker 6:Yeah, I think the 25 feet adds clarity.
Speaker 6:But I understand the underlying purpose and look, there's some jurisdictions where you have things called lawful police orders or obstruction or interference and there's no set law enforcement purpose. That if I have to maintain my focus to do adequate communication, de-escalation, persuasion I'm doing threat assessments, risk assessments on a subject during a Terry stop or investigative detention. That's where my focus, retention needs to be. And if people get to come up and constantly be assessing that some barrier, some imaginary barrier, that's pulling my attention so that I have to turn and give them a lawful order. Hey, I need you to back up on the sidewalk. I don't know what the sidewalk distance is, but I need you to get far enough back that I can focus my attention over here and not have to worry about you over here. Because especially where I was working I mean, depending on what this guy had, it wasn't uncommon for people to come run interference, for him Right To start pulling focus and also this guy's destroying evidence, taking off running or we're getting assaulted, and so it's just this constant 360 degree field of vision and if I don't have enough back officers, I'm constantly just giving lawful orders and then arresting people for failing to obey lawful orders. So the 25 foot principle I understand the concept behind it. The 25 foot rule is to just allow officers to focus on the task at hand and not end up multitasking and splitting their attention, because from a human performance standpoint we don't do that well and we have to bring this up in court quite a bit. Actually, where officers can do, can give orders related to those things that are interference, why we can get people out of cars, put people in cars, tell them to turn their radio down, tell them to put the cigarette out. If I'm lawfully detaining you, I can give you orders that are related to a legitimate law enforcement purpose and oftentimes that is the maintaining a focus of attention for adequate communication, de-escalation, risk assessment, threat assessments, weapon identification. So there's a lot of legitimate reasons for doing it.
Speaker 6:I think the 25-foot rule adds clarity to it. I don't think it's arbitrary. Maybe they could have made it 20. Maybe they could have made it 15. I don't know. They chose 25. I don't know if it was tied into the 21-foot principle or what we use as a 30-foot principle. All that is is telling you how fast someone can move in. 1.7 seconds, right, but that's kind of irrelevant if you don't see them starting to move in the first place right so they're 25 feet behind me.
Speaker 6:I don't care. The 21 foot or 30 foot principle is irrelevant, because I'm not seeing the start signal, I'm not hearing a starting gun. So, um, yeah, that's my I. I heard, I saw the word foolishness. I understand the legitimate purpose behind it, but I also understand how, if you're an innocent person and I'll make this point, shut up Innocent people are the hardest people to control as a cop, because you have a legal right to control them.
Speaker 6:Because the Supreme Court said we must maintain unquestioned command at the scene of our investigations. So that's a traffic stop, it's a Terry stop, it's an arrest. The Supreme court recognizes that the cop and the community are safer when the police maintain unquestioned command at the scene of the investigation. So, with that being the case, an innocent person who doesn't think they're interfering, they're just trying to see what's going on. Maybe they're documenting it, um, which they all have a right to do and you tell them hey, I need you to step back. It's, it's it kind of assaults, their innocence, like why are you talking about? And the problem is, they know they're innocent and you don't right, so you? There's that constant tension and that's.
Speaker 2:That's an outstanding answer, bond, and thank you for that. And alan, if you go down there and there was a what do you call it Super chat five USD something. That was a good question the person had. I want to put it up there for all three of us to discuss for a moment before we roll this next video.
Speaker 8:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Comments are coming in and I love that we have so many coming in. I try to pay attention to our to our folks that are on here and read over here, and they're all important, but I want to make sure we get these up there so I can read this the way it is here. What if your porch is less than 25 feet from the street Stop? Could somebody arrest someone sitting on their porch filming? Here's Banning's opinion on that. That's your castle. Here's Banning's opinion on that. That's your castle.
Speaker 2:And if your specific location is not the I hate to use the word target of, if that's what you prefer to do, you want to get a high dial up lens and focus and launch your drone in that area of your property to watch the stop? That's your property. You want to film 100%. I'm going to tell you, I believe that you have the right to do that, unless told otherwise. There may be some very small things on there. I can't think of one now that you may not be able to do that, unless told otherwise. There may be some very small things on there. I can't think of one now that you may not be able to do that. But by all means, if you're on your porch and your eyes can see the public, you can put a camera and zoom those same public areas. So I have no problem with anybody sitting on their porch, or in public for that matter, filming.
Speaker 2:I've had a lot of people come up to my stops. Don't care, regardless of the feat. I'm familiar with a lot of them in those areas that would come up and do that. Sometimes I would ask them to get out of traffic and stand up on the side, staying the same distance away, and allow them to continue to film. I have no problem with people filming me. To me it's another camera angle. If something were to go wrong, that's something else. An investigator can pull, or the media can pull to show that Banning was in within guidelines of what he's supposed to do as a peace officer. But, vaughn, what are your thoughts on filming?
Speaker 6:I don't know the statute, but I have thoughts. So I want us all to try to just a little. So I'm foot chasing a guy right, he's a violent felon. Everyone here should agree. I get to foot chase this guy. He tried to shoot somebody. I tackle him in your front yard and we land on your porch. Right, we're wrestling with this guy on the steps of your porch and you come outside.
Speaker 6:Does our community, do all of us, believe that a cop can look at that homeowner and say get back in your house while he's wrestling with that guy? And is that a lawful order that you have to obey? Or do you get to say it's my porch, I can do what I want? Does it matter if it's the steps on the porch or the porch itself? Does it matter if it's, let's say, the guy runs into the house and you chase him into the house and it's not his house and you come in, can the officer tell you to get back in your own living room? We do it on domestics.
Speaker 6:If I have a legal right to be where I'm at and I'm engaged in a lawful detention, lawful arrest does where you are at relative to your private property, matter. Relative to the requirement for you to obey a lawful order. Now that may be jurisdiction dependent. I learned that a long time ago. The stuff we could do where I worked if you didn't obey a lawful order, you got arrested it was interference, obstruction, disobeying. We had different options.
Speaker 6:Up in the Northeast they looked at me like I was crazy because if you gave a lawful order, that person didn't have to do anything. He could interfere, he could obstruct, he could disobey, unless he did it with violence. And I was dumbfounded because I was like how do you guys do your job right? You your job right. You have to wait to get hit before you can enforce a lawful order. So I would play that out. I don't know what the statute is. I think the spirit behind it is, if I'm on the sidewalk in front of your house and you want to come out on your porch I don't know the area I can think of some places where I worked, but I wouldn't want anybody from some of those places coming out taking shots at me or getting involved. But those are just my thoughts on it. I think, as a prosecutor, if you're out on your porch and you ended up getting a ticket or get it arrested for it, then I would.
Speaker 2:I would probably use some prosecutor discretion there defense to prosecution on everything that's in the book, right? So?
Speaker 6:yeah, that's exactly right, but those are my thoughts. I think I think we get so wrapped up and I saw a curtilage. Well, cops, cops, enforce law. Law not only on your curtilage, but in your living room, in your bedroom, right? If somebody takes off running, I don't care if you run into your house. I have a legal right to be there. I can give lawful orders that I would have to obey if someone came into my house. So it's not unique to the police or the community. We're all the community at that point. So those are my thoughts on it. I think it would have to flesh it out a little bit. I haven't seen the actual statute.
Speaker 3:Well, and I think that's where sometimes what we have to do in law enforcement is not pretty and we have to get the job done as safe as we can and sometimes that means we have to yell and scream at somebody inside their own house. So me and the suspect are safe and it's not probably what somebody is going to want to hear and the person videotaping it and puts it on YouTube and everybody's like, oh, I can't believe this officer did that and at the end of the day, you know he was looking at his best interest and the best interest of the suspect, because the moment that you know we take possession of a suspect, you know they're ours and we have to maintain safety of them and us.
Speaker 2:Sure, and Vaughn made a great point. Great point and that is a scene being transitioned from its starting location to an unfortunate citizen's home, and we're always taught in the academy and throughout our law enforcement career. When it is your scene and Vaughn said the right thing there, in law enforcement terminology you have a legal reason to be there. You're not there breaking the fourth minute. You're not there busting down. You're there for a legal reason. Then, yes, you must, for safety reasons for everybody Now the homeowner, the neighbors, everybody that's involved.
Speaker 2:We've got to take control of that scene. And it's not about a I have a badge and I'm in control. It's a let's make sure we all go home safe at night. This person may have crashed through your front door. I'm trying to remove this person now from your house. You may know or not know the person, but until this scene is secure, nobody's moving. You may be directed to go back in your bedroom for a moment or sit on a couch, and that is not a power trip, that is a control for safety measures. Believe me, we want to get this person out of your home as quick as possible and back out on the public street next to our car or wherever the scene originated, and go on. But that is a fantastic. I love that you brought that up, vaughn, because I didn't even think about that in the moment of that question.
Speaker 6:It pops into my head, though, that we foot chase people in the strangers' houses, and the strangers were not friendly to us Back then, you know, before cell phones even were popular, they would come in and rip their own phones out of the wall because we had an officer who lost his radio on the foot chase. So he's in the house, he's like call 911, call 911. He's fighting with the guy in their living room, and instead of calling 911, they ripped their own phone out of the wall and started attacking the officer. They didn't know who this guy was. So the officers are aware that every time we get around unfamiliar people the only because we can't tell by looking at somebody whether they're friendly or they're going to attack us we engage in what are called tactical sops. Right, they? It means we apply them regardless of the people who are involved. That means, if I ask you to step back, it means, can I have you put your hands on the steering wheel for me while we do the traffic stop? I don't not accusing you of trying to murder me, I'm just saying I don't know you. And we are so frequently in situations where strangers become really hostile to us really fast, and so in people's living rooms is no exception We've had.
Speaker 6:We got into a shootout because there was a. I mean, it doesn't matter why, but in somebody's front yard. The people in the house came out and tried to defend the suspect who had tried to pull a gun on the cops and then ends up being a shooting. But it was on their curtilage, it was at their house and they would come and try to enforce their property rights, telling the cops to get out of their property. And they came with guns and people got shot.
Speaker 6:So this kind of an op tempo is why cops want to maintain control of the scene, regardless of where it ends up. So if they have a legal right to be there, I think it's probably more important to be a community education thing. Hey, by the way, when the cops show up, you know chasing some bad guy into your house. God forbid that happens. I don't think that's going to happen to 99.9 of the people in in their entire lives, but in some communities it's not that uncommon and if it happens, understand you're still required to obey lawful orders of that police officer and I'm standing in my living room is not a defense.
Speaker 3:So before we go to the next video, I have actually been in this situation. Stan the man, and I know every officer on here when I say what if cases, how we all cringe because we could, what if? To death. But if a guy, someone, into the house, the perp didn't know, so the guy goes into the house, perp didn't know him, and the homeowner has a bunch of blow on the coffee table. Does the homeowner get in trouble? I'll let one of you two answer that question.
Speaker 2:I can tell you a live one that has occurred in the past on an unfortunate circumstance, and it wasn't blow on the table. It was, if I remember correctly, four or five rolled joints on the table here in the state of Texas, which it's still illegal and it was, at that time, to possess, and the person that we were going after was a really bad person. Um, and ended up landing in a back bedroom. Uh, nobody was in the bedroom at the time. The homeowners weren't home. They did have some party goers that were there. Um, got the lead party. This is banning. This is like I got the lead party goers. Attention, hey, that needs to go, and it needs to because I'm focused on the really bad guy that I have right now. But however, that's in my presence review, I have a legal reason to be here. However, I'm making the decision not to act on that right now, but while it's in my presence, we need to make it go down the drain, and then that was the decision that I made at the time presence we need to make it go down the drain, and then that was the decision that I made at the time. Was it the right decision? I don't know, but I was not going to hem up the people in the house that we just blasted through over that.
Speaker 2:I've never been big on the whole enforcing small amounts of marijuana and that's just been banning. Have I done it in the past? Yes, there's always a training in law enforcement. When you have to go and do that Now metric tons and several hundred pounds, different story Then we deal with it.
Speaker 2:But with that specific case, no, I've assisted another agency that a car crashed into a residential apartment complex and when they got in there this is back in the early 2000s they were in the middle of a meth cook. That was dealt with because that could have exploded. There was myriad of factors. It's a multi-person housing unit. There were so many just hazardous materials that were going on. I think it was almost like a fate stop that. Nothing happened. And these were some I'm going to call them rookie cooks that were doing some stuff and I think we possibly saved some lives that night and destroyed that. Get that lab professionally taken out. But that's Banning's opinion. Vaughn, what do you have on that? On contraband being in the house that you happen to pop into legally because you're chasing somebody?
Speaker 6:Yeah, so there's. Obviously the standard is you have to have a warrant for somebody's house. That's the presumption. But there's exceptions, there's exigent circumstances. One of the exigent circumstances was to chase somebody into somebody's house. Right, a third party runs into a stranger's house. That's, that's going to be fairly well settled. The police can chase that person into the house. They don't need a warrant to go get them right. Um, once they're in there, there's another. There's another legal doctrine called plain view. And what plain view doctrine is?
Speaker 6:If you have a legal right to be where you're at and the contraband nature of the item is immediately apparent, I mean, you look at it and you're like, yep, I got probable cause to believe that's that's below, as you said, um, then you can seize it right. And if you can seize it right, then on the spot you don't need to get a warrant, you don't need to leave the house. There's an exception to the warrant requirement for plain view, which means you have a legal right to be where you're at and the contraband nature of the item is immediately apparent. So let me give you the distinction. Let's say you tackle the guy in the front yard, you look over and you see the blow on the windowsill, on the other side of the window, plain as day, it says cocaine on it. You can't reach through and grab that. And you cannot go into the house and grab that because, even though it's in plain view, you don't have a legal right to go inside to grab it at that point and there's no exigency. Now, if you see somebody pull the curtain, they look at you, they see the police, they look at the cocaine and they pick it up. There's your exigency, because destruction of evidence is one of the exigencies. So this is a law school exam question. I've seen it several times. That's the distinction. You have a legal right to be where you're at and is the item immediately apparent as contraband? If it is, you can seize it. And if you can seize it then you can make the arrest as well. So that is on top of exceptions. It's just To Bannon's point.
Speaker 6:I would just add something to the rookie cops out there, to the cops who might be tempted to destroy evidence. That was some 90s stuff we did as well. But bad guys say, hey, he took my dope, where's my dope? In evidence? And we're like well, we flushed it. No, he didn't flush it, he stole it and he's selling it. He's a corrupt cop. They used to call him, you know what officer, friendly, right, right From about it or whatever, but the. So we shifted that pretty quick when, when we would usually think we were doing them a favor by getting rid of their paraphernalia or letting them throw away their small amounts of dope, we stopped doing that right away when the bad guys started accusing of stealing their dope and selling their dope. All of a sudden, now everything got evidence and it would be for destruction. It was a little bit more work for us, but it was just a smarter way to do business once the community started getting really litigious on us, sure.
Speaker 3:A constitutional country. Girl wants to know how Fruit of the Poisonous Tree plays into that.
Speaker 6:That's opposite. Fruit of the Poisonous Tree is when an officer does something illegal and seizes evidence, you can't, you can't admit. Typically the argument is you don't get to admit the evidence against the bad guy because there's the fruit of an illegal search. It's the fruit of the poisonous tree. The illegal search was the poisonous tree. The other way you see that typically is you beat a confession out of somebody. They tell you the dope is in my glove box of the four Taurus. You go and you get the dope and they say well, hold on. The confession is illegal because it wasn't free and voluntary, it was a product of coercion and because it was an illegal confession that led you to that dope. The dope is the fruit of a poisonous tree. Illegal confession that led you to that dope. The dope is the fruit of a poisonous tree, so that it's kind of a fruit of the poisonous trees of doctrine utilized against the officer, not against the suspects.
Speaker 3:All right, so I'm about to move on. But, harrison Brock, we've said this on almost every episode, every episode do not trust the cops. When the cops start talking to you, stop talking. I'm not giving legal advice, I'm just giving my opinion. If I were pulled over, I'm not going to talk to the cops unless the situation warrants it. I'm only going to trust myself. That's the only person I know I can trust, 100% of the time.
Speaker 4:Sure All right, that's how my kids trust cops to be cops.
Speaker 6:Cops don't have your best interest at heart. They're not your defense attorneys. They're there to collect evidence and look. Cops should be the best of your community, right, when all things are going well, they should be the best. But if my kid ever says when someone reads me my rights, should I just talk to them like no, no, you shouldn't talk to, only talk to people who can affect the outcome of your case. Cops can't affect the outcome of your case. That's what prosecutors do. So get your defense attorney to tell your side of the story to someone who can actually influence the outcome of it.
Speaker 6:Now, downstream, maybe, if you got good relationships, you got a cop. You want to share your story so they can advocate for you've got good relationships, you've got a cop. You want to share your story so that they can advocate for you. I got it. But ultimately, again, if my family member says I got pulled over, he read me my rights, should I talk to the cop? I'm going to be just like every other parent. Say no, call me. We'll tell your story to people who can actually influence the outcome of your case.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I always tell my kids I want my daddy. That's their response. All right, so here's this next, next video. I do want to say thank you, as always, to police activity. We almost get all of our videos now from police activity and they do a really good job of trying to get all the video angles and everything and and getting it posted. It's pretty amazing how quickly they get them all posted. So, thank you, go sign up to Police Activity if you're not, and appreciate them. They're not sponsors, but we appreciate what they do. Oh stop, I didn't hit the right button. Rookie mistake here.
Speaker 2:I'm sure Alan's doing this because if I was trying to do it, I'd put up a family movie and be like, well, I don't know how to change this, y'all are going to have to watch it for a second. He's got a lot more expertise in this field than I do and I appreciate the trust. Mr Belfold, and I appreciate you always coming onto our show. You've been a mainstay here. Thank you very much and from me to you, I promise you that there is a bazillion amazing law enforcement officers out there and I hope, within years to come, as this show grows, that you see that. I know I can't change your mind in months time, but hopefully, as this show grows on you and maybe we get to see some things together and experience some stuff, you're going to see some amazing law enforcement officers here across this country all right.
Speaker 4:Sorry, the screen I'm looking at is not making us no, I don't do you know what other road you're nearby or a business you're at. You're at Uh Mills Ave. Fire E M S. Please ple the space. Uh, you know, I uh food line Okay, give Okay, and what's going on out there, ma'am, I'm definitely planning on doing something stupid. I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time hearing you. What did you say? I said I'm definitely planning on doing something stupid. Okay, what do you mean?
Speaker 3:So what are we getting from that so far? Gentlemen, If you were the dispatcher taking that call, what?
Speaker 2:I was muted and I didn't realize it. Just from my experience, and kind of just listening to this, I believe that we're going to have a unfortunately, possibly a suicidal person that is doing the right thing and calling for some help as an outcry. That's. That's the only thing I'm determining so far, Vaughn.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I mean, I worked as a crisis counselor before I was a cop and this sounds like a call we would get and yeah, it typically would turn into I want to hurt myself, but it also could be I'm going to hurt somebody else. I think you shift in, your dispatch is going to shift into crisis counseling mode and information collection, which is empathy, empathy, listen, listen, right, feeling, reflection, empathy, listen until you start gathering some information. But, yeah, overwhelmingly, it ends up it's going to be a what we call signal for potential suicide call, but at this point I'm listening, because it could also be suicide call, but at this point I'm listening because it could also be.
Speaker 4:you could also pivot really quick. Yeah, all right, there's a few ideas on my mind, but, um, I don't know, I could probably go into sphinx and, uh, go to the cashiers and what I think. So you're heading to Sphinx now? Uh, yeah, okay, and what did you say you were planning on doing? Um, I don't really want to say Okay, I need to know what's going on. Though, I'm trying to help you. Um, I don't really want to tell, but police should definitely be around the area. Okay, what's your clothing description? All black and white pants and a gray jacket. Gray jacket, black and white pants. Yeah, do you have any weapons? I do. I have an ice. Are you black, white or Hispanic? I'm black. Is anybody under the influence of drugs or alcohol? No, then where are you at right now? I'm at the Kmart, the empty Kmart, the closed one.
Speaker 3:So in this scenario, one of the things I want to point out this is taking a long time. So far we're two minutes into this call. What I want viewers to understand behind the scenes if there is in my department there's not another dispatcher One dispatcher is taking this call. Plus they're getting officers heading that direction. In a big department you're able to continue on this call and as the dispatcher you've got somebody else that's listening to this call. Some departments now have where they can listen to the calls and send it to the unit's MDT mobile communicator in the car, and so they can actually hear this live call. So officers are generally already responding to this incident. It's not going to be two minutes on the phone and then we're responding to the call.
Speaker 2:Sure and just to add to that, just so people understand. I know there's a lot of buzz going around about real-lifetime crime scene centers, which is an amazing implemented project within these large cities across the United States. A lot of the times they have a button or a way in the 911 dispatch center to prompt the real lifetime crime center monitor and what that means is look at location and what they're going to do is they're going to pull up all the CCTV cameras that may be publicly available in that area for officer safety. Has this person unfortunately maybe hurt herself, already hurt somebody else? Has somebody hurt her? What is the picture prior to law enforcement's arrival? And those are very gifted agencies if you're able to get that information to that officer prior to arrival. But I love that technology is slowly starting to really pick up to the lifetime crime centers. I mean, these things are invaluable assets if you can properly deploy them within your jurisdictions. Go ahead, sorry.
Speaker 4:All right, go ahead Okay.
Speaker 6:Hey, alan, let me put your phone on, sorry. Yes, sir, just real quick so people know. So I'm the cop getting this call right now. There's a couple of things I'm concerned about, particularly as a supervisor. There's a thing called dispatch priming, which means the information that the dispatcher is willing to share with you is going to kind of set your expectations for the call. So right now we don't know if it's suicide or she's going to go rob one of the gas stations, right. Or it's going to be an assault, or she's going to use the assault to commit suicide, right. We have no idea. And dispatch has a really tough job now. They should be trying to get as much information as possible.
Speaker 6:Officers are trained in this concept. It's called musheen, it's like a Japanese term, means empty mind. It means try not to come to any conclusions, because if the dispatch leads us to believe this is just a suicide call, we're going to come in as crisis counselors. And right now we don't know whether it's suicide or homicide, we don't know if it's suicide or assault, and the officer's approach to that is going to be very different if a single piece of information comes in. Like you know, she says something, I'm about to do something stupid and I'm armed with a knife and I'm going to the gas station, that's. Those little pieces of information will start to paint a very different picture than just hey, I'm about to do something stupid. She's called the police for a reason, right, she wants help it's almost like she wants, talked out of this at this point.
Speaker 6:This is where dispatch has a huge role in in collecting information and influence in the outcome of these cases. One in what they're selling her and two, what they end up telling the officers. And, and one of the things we look at as the definition of an expert isn't that they immediately see and can evaluate and know what the scene is, but that they're very comfortable operating in uncertainty. Right? They engage in tactical SLPs, operate in uncertainty, continue to collect as much information as possible and don't jump to conclusions. So I just want to throw that out there. This is one of those calls where I would be telling my people hey, let's slow down and get some containment, figure whether this is a suicide or whether this is a assault in progress.
Speaker 3:And so a little perspective on my side of it. So I come from an agency with one dispatcher and in the evening we're going to have three officers on the streets in a community about 10,000. And so in this scenario, while you know dispatchers are trained, you want to keep them talking. You want to. You know you don't want the line to go dead. And so when she's giving information, when the suspect is on the phone and giving this information, the dispatcher's tentatively going to be muting that.
Speaker 3:And at the same time, if I hear my dispatcher, you can hear their voice. And if they just give me an address I know that it's a high alert call, that you know I don't know what I'm going to, but I know I need to get to that address. You can just tell by their voice. And so as soon as she can give me more information, I can generally tell by how she gives me the address. If she's, you know she's on. You know she's still talking to the person, but I know I need to get to that address. I don't know what I'm going to, but I know I'm going to something not good, yep.
Speaker 2:And and and kind of going back to what Vaughn was was was stating uh, doing this, as long as I have, I've. I've unfortunately had uh dispatchers that would insert or what's the best way to say this, I married a dispatcher. So, as respectful as I can, sometimes an opinion will come across as fact in that CAD or computer aided dispatch message that's going out to all responding receiving that dispatcher. I believe we have a problem, we're entering other circumstances on there and I believe that's how Vaughn was describing that.
Speaker 3:No, I completely agree with that. I just wanted to add that next piece to it too. Depending on the agency you're working at, I really think that there's sometimes when, unfortunately, dispatchers don't get to see the end of a call. They don't know if somebody gets arrested, they don't know. You know they deal with the trauma at the very beginning of it, and so then they treat every call, whether it's a kitten up in a tree or if it's an officer going to a fatality, they're treated all the same. Are going to a fatality, they're treated all the same, and so they don't. Officers have a hard time understanding what they're going to in that incident.
Speaker 6:We even have a 10 code for that right. I mean unknown trouble, right, cops? This is not unusual to those who are just joining this. These type of calls that you don't know what's going on. You just kind of got to get to the area and figure it out. That's just being a cop.
Speaker 2:You bet. I mean I've gone to literally, unfortunately, hundreds of these. That's where you try to figure out based on what dispatch is telling you. There is some software and different vendors out there that are providing the audio, not quite live, maybe with a five second delay to where an officer can actually hear this going to a call, but there can be. But that can be a double-edged sword too, listening to what's going on as the responding enforcement force or helping force that's going there. I don't think that's the best answer to this either, but I think it needs just to be fact basis on what they're hearing. Put the facts down to get that officer exactly what you were hearing, without opinion-based, to let that officer truly develop a plan to where nobody gets hurt or the best possible outcome.
Speaker 3:You know something that was. You know when we're responding to these calls and we, you know, we want the outcome to you know. I kind of lost my train of thought, so we're just going to move on. All right, here we go.
Speaker 4:What's going on? Why do you feel this way? Um, I don't know. You know just you know, there's always times where something is right. Do you feel like suicidal? I feel like anything is possible at this point. Are you thinking about killing yourself? Uh, no, would you hurt my deputies out there? Yeah, I would.
Speaker 8:Did you call us?
Speaker 3:So that last question there. Is that the right question to ask?
Speaker 2:You know, I think, the question, you know, and we could say her quarterback, this dispatcher, she's doing the best job.
Speaker 3:No, I completely agree. I just want to ask, I want to know that if, as the officer responding, I want to know that you know, do you have any ideations, using different terminology to where everybody can understand?
Speaker 2:you know, are you wanting to hurt somebody other than yourself? Do you want to harm yourself? These type of things? I try not to use the word suicide, and that's just me. I get a better response from people. Are you wanting to harm yourself or hurt yourself, period? Are you wanting to see yourself bleed?
Speaker 2:And these are things that I've used on scene speaking to people to articulate whether or not they need to see psychiatric help, and a lot of these people do. They need to see psychiatric help and a lot of these people do. But I've got to articulate the plan down to where they're truly a danger to themselves, to where, if they back out when that ambulance gets there, or we're rolling a squad to the hospital to get them help and it's under a voluntary consensus and once we get there, they decide I don't want to go. I want to make sure that I have articulable circumstances to put an emergency mental detention on this person so they can truly get the help that they deserve for what's going on in their life. So, yes, I believe it's very important the way we ask these questions to other folks not an attorney by any stretch of the imagination, but have done it, unfortunately, many, many, many times.
Speaker 5:Yep.
Speaker 8:All right, what's going on this evening or this morning? What's going on, say?
Speaker 3:what what can the sheriff's office help you with, ma'am? So how does that make you feel when you're in the middle of talking to somebody and a car rolls right up and now you can't hear the person that you're talking to?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's uh, obviously some rudeness there going on. You know they're reading screens coming in. He's maybe somebody that doesn't like to walk far and he's repositioning. But yeah, the loud motor, especially on the Crown Vics. When I first started, if a Crown Vic pulled up next to you and that frigging radiator fan was going, the conversation's gone. These chargers are loud not quite as loud as a Crown Vic or a Tahoe, but yeah, positioning is very important on this. All right.
Speaker 3:Sorry that bothered me.
Speaker 8:Do you need EMS for anything? Okay.
Speaker 7:Okay, what's going on? What's going on today? I want to start with this.
Speaker 5:I'm now your Baby. Baby, what's going on today?
Speaker 8:How can we help you? I'm David. Did you call 911? I did, yeah, okay, what did you call 911 for? Do you need a place to stay tonight? Do you need a place to stay tonight? Do you need a ride somewhere? What can we do to help you? That's what we're here for. I don't think we're going to stay overnight, okay, well, so far you haven't given us a reason for you to need to go either of those places. So you called 911, I'm assuming because you need something. What can we help you with?
Speaker 8:You can just send a dispatcher, or if you need a ride somewhere. It's cold outside. If you need to get home or to a friend's house, we can help you with that too.
Speaker 3:I think these officers are doing a really good job. Is there something that? Do you think they're aware that she has a knife, or do you think the dispatcher told them that she had a knife?
Speaker 6:If you're asking me, I'm not sure. Look, I think a one-year cop has to be able to operate like a five-year cop, like a 10-year cop in the same system In five years. You should be better at one year. So we just look at it like there are tactics that are trained in law enforcement to respond to something like this that we're not seeing. Let me just put it that way. There are tactics and training that we're not seeing. One of just put it that way. There are tactics and training that we're not seeing.
Speaker 6:One of the things is you don't have a head conversation when someone's having a heart moment, right? So it's the baseline, foundational concept of crisis counseling. This woman's call with a call for help at crisis counseling, it's a heart moment. So what can I do for you? What's your problem? How can I solve this problem for you right now is not the approach you take with someone having a heart moment. That's rational decision making, problem solving. They need to just be in pure. How are you doing? Is everything okay? What can we have?
Speaker 6:Tell me about your experience? You know, basically really compassionate, empathetic engagement at this point, right, look, they didn't turn their lights on. I'm glad for that. I wasn't as concerned about pulling up. I don't know how far they are actually, um, they're keeping their distance. I think they must know she has a knife or they. They would have been a lot closer, a lot faster, I think, um, just with a 911 call. So I'm assuming they know she has a knife and she said she was going to do something crazy. Which means standoff distance is great, having a barrier is great.
Speaker 6:I'm just not sure these guys have the communication and persuasion and counseling training to respond to someone in crisis like this. And I'll tell you from an officer, safety standpoint this could go south really fast. Right, and you only get, you only get, you know, like one chance to build rapport very, very quickly. And I put rapport in quotes because real rapport can't be, can't be had that fast. But that's my first take on this is as a crisis counselor. I'm just like, oh my gosh, guys, stop, stop asking her how to problem solve right now. This is a woman who's in distress. You could hear it in the 911 call with the irrational thought process. So that's my two cents on it.
Speaker 3:So you brought up something there and I've had the opportunity recently to get out of my bubble in Texas and I've been in Northwest in a few departments, and so is this call a officer needs to respond first call or is this an emotional counselor call that could be sent out?
Speaker 6:I think the knife and I'm going to do something stupid. Got the cops, the counselors or the firemen aren't showing up to this without-.
Speaker 3:I completely agree. I just wanted you know, that was my thought process that I had forgotten earlier. Uh, mr Bill fold Vaughn, uh, we, uh, we need to buy you a donut, is uh, cause that was definitely an indeed heart moment, is what, uh, mr Bill said there. So, all right, so I'm going to play it on here.
Speaker 7:Stay around here, stay on. I see Dempsey where at on Dempsey, right at the top of the hill, charlie 28,. We're about to get on the platform Right at the top of the hill. I ain't been down Dempsey in so long, I don't even remember where the hill is. To be honest with you, yeah, it's just right over there. Yeah, I know where the street is. It's right across from the Family Dollar right. Is that what that is? Family Dollar, dollar and Gentle, something like that? Yeah, say that again.
Speaker 3:So if Eric was here, I could tell you exactly what he's about to just say. One person needs to talk. 100% agree on this.
Speaker 2:This is something I bet the three of us had seen countless times in law enforcement and I've always been and quote unquote, excuse my French the asshole, even not as a supervisor. I'm saying but I'll tell my partner when I say my partner, it's just somebody that works for you know, that's wearing the uniform, hey, shut it. I got it. Or if he has it, I'm going to shut my mouth. Because if we have that one line of communication, if it's going smoothly, allow that to keep going.
Speaker 2:If you're interjecting on both sides, even a reasonable and prudent person that has no problems is going to get pissed off, just like if the three of us are talking all at the same time, everybody that's watching the show is going to be like shut the hell up. We're trying to understand all of you and the same concept goes for this and obviously this is for all the people watching out there. But we need to establish who's the primary person on duty. Establish that rapport. If you can't do it, go get training, get an officer up there that can. But let's get this person some help, and that's Banning's opinion on it.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I think the second piece too. You're seeing this guy do a much better job. He's shifted from problem solving tell me what we can do for you to the small talk, the building report. Where are you living? I'm familiar with that area. He's doing what's called forced coupling right. He's trying to find a universal shared identity, a universal shared interest, or something Some people use kids, some of you.
Speaker 6:What's your favorite drink? Oh, that's mine too. Whatever it is, you can see, I don't know. We're getting segments of this, so I don't know. We're getting segments of this, so I don't know these guys. These guys aren't doing. They're doing a lot of things really well. They really are.
Speaker 6:Their tone of voice is good. When we teach cops, it's content, voice and other non-verbals. They're doing a lot of things really well. This may be the best they have, and I see one cop come up in that right tone of voice. He feels like he's being compassionate. What's missing is content. That's training issue. Right, we had to sit down with supervisors or with trainers to listen to us do actual interviews and with feeling reflection sheets in front of us. But before you have that and somebody says well, just go talk calmly, keep your stimulus down, have a good facial expressions and body language. They're doing all that well right. They're not doing a bad job and this may be the limits of their skills.
Speaker 6:So I'm reading some of the comments and I don't disagree with them. If this is what these guys bring into the fight, this is their level of skill. They're doing a great job. I'm just saying there's other training out there to elevate that. And when I say cops aren't counselors, cops are absolutely. There's training out there for cops to do effective communication, persuasion and de-escalation Right. Crisis counseling, that's all it is. And cops are absolutely trained at crisis counseling across the country, but not all of them Right. So I think these guys are doing a great job for the tools they're bringing into the fight. So I think these guys are doing a great job for the tools they're bringing into the fight. And this last little segment you showed I thought he was. He had shifted right into having a good rapport building conversation. He was no longer problem solving at that point.
Speaker 2:And just to add to that, vaughn, I know you you have to look at it in many, many states and myself and Alan have to look at Texas, but I know Alan can regurgitate this as well but in the state of Texas we have mental health peace officers and all that means is the governing body here that looks over our licenses for what is also known as post-training. We can get what's called a mental health peace officers for agencies and this is a Alan correct me if I'm wrong it's a 40 or 80 hour very in-depth class that you go through for a TCO rating on becoming a mental health peace officer. Personally, I believe anybody that's in uniform that's going to engage with the public, with as much mental health problems as we have going on, needs to be a mental health peace officer certified. Or if they're having issues on the street, like maybe one of these officers, or put any scene out there and get these people certified to do that, because it is a great class and it's teaching the basics and it unlocks a lot of these problems that we're having coming up to these scenes. And I know a lot of states are doing the same thing with CIT, et cetera.
Speaker 2:State of Texas does that as well and they're trying to one up that by doing that mental health peace officer training, and I think that's very, very important to do. But I think all of law enforcement that makes daily engagements with the public should have that basic mental health peace officer training. Because we wear so many hats out here. I mean, we're a mechanic one call, we're a taxi cab driver, we're a person taking somebody to jail. We're taking a person like this to get mentally evaluated, to get the help that that person needs. If we're going to wear all these hats, let's make sure that we have the training for these hats. And I know agencies are trying to do that and it costs money. But at least Texas have stepped up with the mental health peace officer training course.
Speaker 6:If I could put something in perspective for your guests. I studied and I wrote a lot of articles. You guys go to 4ScienceNews, it's free. I wrote a lot of articles on persuasion, communication, deescalation and the reality of what that looks like. After when the deescalation tsunami hit the police force, they basically said they wanted to bring in mental health professionals because they were more, they were better trained and so I started studying. Well, fine, what are mental health professionals doing that cops aren't doing? So he studied what was called the beta studies, which was the best practices for the emergency management of agitation. It was de-escalation in psychiatric facilities done by mental health professionals. They studied what were the best practices and here's what was interesting about it they all recognized that not everybody's able or willing to be deescalated, that sometimes violence is the reason, disobedience is the reason, and you're not going to deescalate or persuade them. The mental health professionals recognize that. The other thing is, when they got their best practices, they went to police to learn best practices, because police were the ones who didn't have medicine to just pump in somebody's leg like the mental health professionals were doing in a potentially violent crisis intervention. So the mental health professionals in their best practice studies actually got their best practices largely from what cops good cops were already doing on the street. So we studied the beta reports. We put that together.
Speaker 6:Here's the other big takeaway CIT training from a communications persuasion standpoint is about six hours of actual communication training. The basic training for a crisis counselor for the program I went to was over 100 hours of supervised crisis counselor training supervised crisis counselor training. So if you want to talk to somebody on the phone and not have to worry about all the risks and the threats and the backstops and the competing government interests, you just want to talk to somebody on the phone. It was over a hundred hours of supervised crisis counseling training, communications training and persuasion training. Compare what's happening now with those mental health professionals with what we're giving cops and calling them trained CIT officers. What my recommendation has been is when you get these academy classes we have all these volunteer crisis hotlines in these communities Put that in the police department have every one of these officers have to go through the mandatory crisis counseling training as part of their academy curriculum and while they're in the academy they have to volunteer for a shift on the crisis counseling hotline.
Speaker 6:Once they're out of the academy they need to go through their crisis counseling high-tide and some of their shifts need to be just on the phone, where they don't have to worry about anything other than communication and supervised. So now we're actually developing the communication side before they have to worry about the officer safety side. Only after that foundation and I mean hundreds of hours do they get to go out on the street and then they get to use and exercise communications, persuasion, de-escalation on the street, intersecting with officer safety, public safety, crime prevention and all the other things we have to pay attention to. Right now we are setting cops up for failure 24 hours. Verbal judo class 24 hours and it's one of the best ones out there historically Verbal defense and influence and I'm an instructor for all these courses verbal judo, verbal defense and influence, force science, realistic de-escalation. I've been to CIT training All these programs, every one of them.
Speaker 6:What they lack is operationalizing the lessons. The content's great, but if we actually want to operationalize it so that it's effective on the street, it's going to take 10 times or more many hours of actual supervised practice for these cops out on the street. So I wanted to put that perspective and then I'll leave with this. The mental health professionals. Historically, when they had violence, potential violence in these people, they called the cops, that's who did their de-escalation and persuasion. Or they got a needle and they stuck them with the needle. That was their de-escalation. So, regardless of what we think about mental health professionals and the lessons we could derive from them or the skillset they might bring to the fight, a good crisis counselor that we bring out there should have had hundreds of hours of that type of expertise and training, and now it's time that we get we push that over to the cops as well, you bet 100%.
Speaker 3:So we haven't heard from Joni. Very often Officers don't have soft chemical restraints, just a license to touch I think one of the best tools officers on their Swiss Swiss Army knife of tools is just talking. And I think you know it's been said by Banning and Eric on multiple shows. You know, one of the things that we're not doing with these kids that are coming into the world of law enforcement is these kids don't know how to talk to anybody. The only thing they know how to do is sit there in the chats in these video games and talk, smack to each other and scream at their headset and throw their remote down and they lack the ability to understand inflection and things like that. And you know, just hold a conversation.
Speaker 3:You know, when I was working, you know my background is, I spent 16 years working with students in schools and you know kids don't look you in the eye. They don't. They don't know how to talk to you. Don't look you in the eye, they don't. They don't know how to talk to you and to get a kid. When even my son gets in the car his, I have a nine year old and I'm like, hey, how's your day? How was your day today. Oh, it was good. I'm like, okay, that's not going to do it. You're going to have to use more words than that, and I think that's one of the challenges that we're running into is, uh, is people just don't have communication skills anymore, and and we've got to reinforce that. And you know, training and training, and training and every one of us is going to sit here and harp on. We need more training, but yet when it comes time to training, how many of us sign up and want to go?
Speaker 2:Sure and I'm going to speak on that just for one second because I don't think, you know, vaughn has got a really busy schedule on this but I want to know, I want to know Vaughn's opinion.
Speaker 2:Seriously, man, I believe in the academy, just the communication structure of our students, the guys and gals that want to come out here and serve the people.
Speaker 2:I think there needs to be something within the academy that shows that these officers, guys and gals alike, that they can communicate not a hundred percent, but they're working on it or it's getting really good, a lot better than what it currently is across the country.
Speaker 2:I, you know, I talked to cops nationwide and I've talked to a lot of rookies that have been out on the street for six months to a year and when you get in that conversation with them, it's nil, to say the least. They have not built those communications yet and I understand they're young 21, 22, 23-year-old folks. But I think within the academy we need to introduce more of a communication realm, because communication, I believe, really sets you apart from different types of officers and you're going to be able to get that job done a lot faster if you can communicate, regardless of the public that's listening the amount of people in the crowd or if you're online or in a game. Like Alan was saying, I think just a base principle of being a law enforcement officer is the ability to communicate effectively. I mean, what are your thoughts on that from what you've seen around the country?
Speaker 6:Yeah, realistic de-escalation covers a couple of things. For cops it's the integration of communication tactics, right. So that part is going to be police specific. Now the actual communication piece can be taught and it's not hard. Um, like I said, they gave us a cheat sheet that had feeling reflections on it. So you know, transformational vocabulary, feeling reflections.
Speaker 6:When someone says, you know, I'm, I'm pissed off, that's what they tell you and you want to do transformational vocabulary to bring down their mostly, you know exactly, it sounds like you're frustrated today. So I read I reflect back frustration. When they said pissed off and they're like, yeah, I'm really frustrated if it catches, it catches. I'm just giving an example because we have an entire list of these kind of words with variable, varying intensities. So you learn that how to how to use words to lower, lower their, their emotional state as affected as to the work. If they say they're pissed off and you say I can tell you're frustrated, they're like, no, I'm pissed, it's no big deal, that's the feedback and you reflect it back yeah, I can tell you're pissed. And now you're building rapport by mirroring back the language. You can't go wrong in that.
Speaker 6:So my point is there are training guidelines that can take someone who doesn't know, doesn't feel comfortable communicating, and make it a script, almost like so you know, verbal judo script. Right? Hey, I'm officer clean to pick up police. The reason I stopped you is I didn't notice you ran the stop sign. Is there any justified reason for the violation? Um, if not, you know, and you do that script every time, so the first year rookie can sound like a 10 year veteran because they're falling into that script. And but it's script isn't just the content. If you notice, I'm, I'm telling you why I stopped you. I'm telling you what my authority is, who I am. I'm giving you my name right off the bat, because when you stop cars, what do they say? Who are you? Who do you think you are? Why did you stop me? Well, don't make them ask that Right off the bat with good facial expression, good compassion. Hey, I'm Officer Cleen. Please say the reason I did stop you is I did notice you run that stop sign and then invite feedback. Is there any justified reasons why this type of communication can be trained? And it's scripted.
Speaker 6:And then I'll add this other piece feeling reflections and empathy. Having the heart conversations instead of the head conversations are about feeling reflections. I hear you say a feeling. I reflect it back. It sounds like you're feeling. You just said I'm pissed. Sounds like you're feeling pissed and like, oh, he's listening to me.
Speaker 6:It's when you do it with your wife every day, when you're practicing at home, when you're in the academy and you come home and you're practicing, you're going to stop doing that stuff to me. But out on the street it comes across as authentic. It comes across it's not scripted. So there's ways to train that to your point If they come in at a different level. But most people don't know how to do crisis counseling training unless they came up in a kind of a hostile family structure right, where that became some sort of survival mechanism. But okay. So, having said that, it's very trainable and it's not hard to train.
Speaker 6:And I would add this point we had guys that when they would get in trouble on the street for disrespect or or anger management, they'd have to come back to our training again communication training. I was given certificates, I was given doctorates in verbal judo, doctorates in communication, because these guys would come back three, four times in the same class. So instead of giving them a certificate of completion, I would make up okay, you're now a doctorate, right? This is your fourth time going to the class. What was interesting about that is one of the guys who had to keep coming back. I saw him out on the street and he was about to go hands-on with a guy that was twice his size and twice as mean, and his communication skills were amazing at that point.
Speaker 6:It was an incentive to use the tools. The tools aren't hard. It's how to incentivize the officers that it is in their best interest and the community's best interest to utilize those tools, because when this guy was incentivized, he could have taught the class. That's how good it was. So, to your point, yeah, they need to be taught, but I will say the programs are out there to teach it and then it's just repetition and good feedback. But I will say the programs are out there to teach it and then it's just repetition and good feedback.
Speaker 2:But I do say generation upon generation of cops have needed that training Absolutely. And thank you for that, mon. I appreciate it. And, alan, if you have something to add, throw it out. If not, let's. Yeah, let's get it going. See how they do this. Thanks, guys. Do you need?
Speaker 7:anybody from the sheriff's office. Stay on Dempsey by yourself. Who do you stay with? My brother? Your brother. How old's your brother? He's 26. He's 26? Yeah, so that's your only sibling. No, that's your only sibling. No, I have six other. Goodness gracious, I know when are you at in that mix. I'm the second oldest. You're the second oldest, right? Oh, okay, I got you. How does it feel being the oldest? It's pretty cool, it's something. Yeah, usually when you're you bully your younger siblings, you give them a hard time. Yeah, yeah, that's usually how it goes. You got the better end of the stick there, I'd say.
Speaker 8:So, daisy, I guess you told one of the people at our dispatch that stop it, drop it, drop it. Drop the knife, daisy. Drop the knife. I don't want to shoot you. You don't want this either. Drop the knife, daisy. Don't do it, daisy. Daisy, I don't want to hurt you. Drop the knife. I got her, daisy, don't go towards him. Nope, don't do it, drop it, I don't do that. Come on, Daisy, you don't gotta do that. None. Maybe two minutes down at the most.
Speaker 8:Daisy, how can we help you? We don't want you to get hurt. We don't want to get hurt. Let us get you some help, daisy, go in for the knife down, okay, I mean, I'm good, it was purposeful, she took it. Yep, daisy, drop the knife please. We don't want you to get hurt. We don't want to get hurt. You made a threat on us by moving towards us with the knife, so we can't leave now. Okay, alright, so go ahead and drop the knife so we can get you out of here. Junior, I'm coming to your side. Okay, I'm coming to you. Just put the knife down. We'll get you whatever you need.
Speaker 8:Just put the knife down, daisy. We will get you whatever you need. We can call somebody for you, we can get you a ride somewhere, we can get you something to eat. The opportunities are endless. Whatever you need. What's it going to?
Speaker 5:be. We're going to get a box of be.
Speaker 8:Yep, that's a humor. I am funny as fuck. He's single, if you're looking.
Speaker 3:I skipped ahead about a minute.
Speaker 8:No, no knives, he needs a date to their Christmas party. Hey don't put through it Like seriously. He needs a date. So if you know somebody, help him out.
Speaker 5:Daisy. What's been going on today? I don't normally just walk out with a knife like that. What's been going on today? I don't normally just walk out with a knife like that. What's been going on? You got enough people here because they're genuinely concerned about you. This isn't like you're fucking off, doing nothing. I'm not in trouble. You're just putting me on a pedestal.
Speaker 3:That's a K9 over there in that other unit, charlie 39, 10-9.
Speaker 4:10-9.
Speaker 5:10-9. 10-9.
Speaker 8:10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9., 10-9.
Speaker 5:Anywhere you need to go if you're hungry. You look cold, just want a bottle of water.
Speaker 8:Hey, I got some Taco Bell in my car that I probably shouldn't be eating. It's all yours if you want to do the right thing.
Speaker 5:I think you know whatever is going on right now is not how things should be. You want change in your life. You want a positive difference being made. If you need, there's not a whole lot we can do for you. Daisy, I think you called because you know you want to do the right thing. I think you know whatever is going on right now is not how things should be. You want change in your life. You want a positive difference being made. Let us help you make that positive change. I understand reaching out for something at the break.
Speaker 8:Don't do it.
Speaker 2:Seeing this type of call as many times as I've seen it, it never gets any easier to watch that. And our warning as we said earlier, we watched some pretty dramatic things on this show and if that hurt anybody out there watching that I apologize and unfortunately this is the world that we live in in some instances. But I believe in their hearts they're doing the best that they could to talk to her. I truly believe that we should have and not quarterbacking. Okay, just looking back, and if we could hit a reset button, can we get the, the second officer the world, up a little bit further to be maybe become that primary? And again, just an opinion would it have gone differently? Probably not. She may have already had everything figured out in her head, but I do believe they're trying to deesescalate the best they could.
Speaker 6:But move on. Yeah, uh, so if you want to just analyze it when you have, when you want to do de-escalation, you have to have discretionary time. Discretionary time is a reasonable amount of containment and a reasonable amount of control. While she was standing there with a knife, they had both a reasonable amount of containment in that they. That just means they're limiting her to a reasonable area of movement. Right where they, there's no imminent threat. They had that. So as long as she remained stationary, a reasonable amount of controls. There's no actual imminent harm taking place right now. She's not hurting herself, she's not hurting anyone else. When you have containment and control, you have what we call discretionary time and that's what you can engage in the communication to whatever level, skill level you have, if you have discretionary time.
Speaker 6:The other thing that we want cops doing is bringing in additional resources, if you have them, by intermediate force options tasers, standoff distance, impact weapons If those are options in your department, maybe they, maybe you don't have them the. So as this thing's going on, I'm starting to wonder where's your intermediate force options. If you have standoff distance, can you create additional standoff distance and still maintain containment? Which the way that would look for something like this and again, this is hindsight I have all the benefit of sitting in an air-conditioned office with no threat to myself. I'm thinking okay, she's on a long strip, put some people on the ends. What we're protecting at this point. Why she can't move is because we can't let her get into a populated area. So the officers can certainly back up, but then they lose containment. And now she's mobile with a knife, um, and they can't let that happen. So they can expand containment perhaps, uh, by limiting the reasonable area of movement or expanding the reasonable movement to those populated ends of the building. Um, just quickly looking at it. So I would expect to see some of the stuff like that, if those were even options. But that's what they were doing is maintaining some containment. Not everybody's able or willing to be de-escalated. So there is no, it's not reasonable for me to assume that if you had a more skillful communicator, they were going to do any better. These guys, I think when they tried jokes they were trying to do any better. Um, these guys, I think when they tried jokes they were trying different options and different feedback. That's perfectly legitimate. To see what slows her down and what builds rapport with her. Um, all that stuff was good.
Speaker 6:The the other thing is and this will be controversial and I I'll just put it out there there's no law that said you can't shoot someone in the leg. Right, she's an imminent threat. I wouldn't say that when she started running. Once she started running, I'm not advocating you shoot him in the leg. At that point, you shoot available center mass to get to increase your chance for hit. But while she's standing there, noncompliant with a knife, having threatened the officers, the officers could be as creative as they want. Compliant with a knife, having threatened the officers, the officers could be as creative as they want. And if an officer decided at that point I'm going to shoot her in the leg, if I miss and she takes off running, then we're going to have to go higher on the up on the body.
Speaker 6:But starting to get creative at that point, when she's an imminent threat, but not actively assaulting, is, uh, something that was just going through my head, because when that first got brought up I thought what exactly are the circumstances where you'd shoot somebody in the leg? Like when are you safe enough to try that? Well, maybe this was one of them. I'm not saying it was, but those are the kind of thoughts that were going through my head. If you don't have intermediate Force options, do you have any other options? Um, and again, maybe I'll be very clear once you went mobile and started a faulty officer I'm not advocating shooting them in LA you get available center mass at that point, sure? Um, yeah, so these were my thoughts. I I was getting a little frustrated that there weren't beanbag rounds being thrown her direction, um, but I don't know if they had that skill set.
Speaker 6:Now, the other thing I would add is I kept seeing 21 foot principle. I want to be very clear about this, because force science got hammered by the police research forum years ago and it was complete nonsense. And here's what the theory was Force science is teaching that anybody with a knife who's within 21 feet of you, you can shoot them. That is absolutely never what we taught.
Speaker 6:Here's how it goes when you're looking in an imminent threat, you want to know does the person have the physical ability, means and opportunity? So it's it's intent ability means, an opportunity that we're analyzing. Do you reasonably believe they have the intent ability means I'll be to inflict death or serious bodily injury? All 21 feet rule or principle tells you all 30 foot principle tells you is that that an app that average there's within a range that someone can close 21 feet in about 1.5 seconds on average. And we don't know, this person might be faster, this person might be slower, but you have to gauge something when you're doing a threat assessment. About 31 feet is 1.7 seconds. Now why is that relevant? Because that's about the amount of time an average officer can draw their gun out and get one aim fire out.
Speaker 6:The 21-foot principle never has ever said someone with a knife who says I'm going to stab you and they're within 21 feet, you can just shoot them. You still have to demonstrate intent, ability, means and opportunity. Now, that's a judgment by each individual officer and reasonable people can disagree. So if you have someone who's been in a stabbing before there with, that guy was, was 30 feet away and instantly took off and stabbed a cop, the next time you find someone in that same situation, you're going to be much faster with your deadly force, right? Another cop who's like I'm going to assume more risk, that's fine, they get to do that, but nowhere is it ever says someone with a knife standing 21 feet gets shot like. That's not, that's not the standard um. So I just want to throw that out there.
Speaker 6:I think that this is this is tragic. Obviously nobody wanted to see this um, but I think the officers did a much better job towards the end of actually trying to build rapport. They were doing distractions, changing pace, tactical after action review we might look at. Okay, the next time we see something like this would we have thought about moving out, maybe expanding out our containment a little bit broader, maybe get into some intermediate force options from a neighboring institution or neighboring agency if we don't have them um. But quite frankly, some agencies you get what you get and that's it. So they didn't have it, they didn't have it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, vaughn, I will say that we very much appreciate having you out here tonight. Mr Belfold wants to know, wants you to know, that you have a new nickname it's Wizard Vaughn, because, uh, saying everything, he's thinking so, and that's great company, because we, we love us some. Mr Bill Foltz. So, um, and then, uh, good night to uh, uh, somebody has got to go to bed. I just, uh, ward's got to go to bed. So, um, you know, he's, you know, got to go and run the streets in the morning, so, give me two seconds, guys.
Speaker 2:I've got to adjust the temperature in the house. Put my daughter back in.
Speaker 3:And, um, there was one other thought that I wanted. You know. Uh, there there was a comment said about the beanbags and you know, I have actually never even gotten to train with them in my small agency and I can can see where that's a great tool. But again, it's another thing on the Batman belt that we wear, of tools, that some agencies have them and some agencies don't Everybody in the comments when the taser got pulled out in that initial part of the video.
Speaker 3:You know, one thing we have to know is we're up in the north, you know northern part of the country and she's wearing a jacket, and I've personally been in a situation where I was pulling the trigger and, fortunately, the taser started working because he was closing the distance and I was, I was, I had my, uh, my firearm out and, uh, I fortunately didn't have to finish pulling the trigger because, all the all of a sudden, the taser made contact through the jacket and so, luckily, I wasn't in that scenario any longer. But, um, you know, sometimes those intermediate weapons don't work, but they're nice to have them when they do. And so, um, can you talk a little bit about, uh, experience with the beanbag round, cause I don't have any experience with it.
Speaker 6:Um, they work when they work, they don't when they don't.
Speaker 6:So we're on that. We're on the Clear Creek Colorado case. Um, it was a hung jury the first time. We're going to do it again next month.
Speaker 6:But the officers in that case, the guy was contained in a vehicle trying to. He armed himself with a knife when they broke out the passenger side window. After about an hour and 10 minute standoff with him, and at that point he'd armed himself with a knife, they thought he was trying to get out of the car. At that point he'd armed himself with a knife. Um, they thought he was trying to get out of the car at that point. So as long as he was in the car was fine. Um, if he wanted to arm himself with a knife, they said stay in the car. If he put the knife down, they said get out. But at this point he'd armed himself and they thought he was getting out because he kept trying to reach up to the doorknob. So he kind of set that. So the officers one of the officers says get the beanbag on him, get that effing knife out of his hand, because again, at that point they think he's trying to get out with the knife and the vehicle's surrounded by officers with guns drawn. So they try the beanbag round first and they're shooting him in the shoulder. Um, I think they get three or four hits on him and one, when one round, goes to the back window, smashes the window out.
Speaker 6:Now that the back window smashed out, uh, the officer on the driver's side tries to tase him through the, through the back window. That's when he tries to stab the officer. So he's trying to stab the officer through the window. He actually looks like he hits the officer's taser with the knife. That's how close he is. The cover officer sees that the beanbag rounds have completely failed. He never even dropped the knife, he just flinched. So then they tried to taser. Taser did not work no neuromuscular incapacitation so they tried to intermediate force options. And then he tries to stab the officer to the window and the cover officer went lethal on him. It looks really bad because he's still in the car, right, but he's in the car trying to stab through the back window. You can see his arm completely out the window with the knife. They charged the officer with murder in that case.
Speaker 6:So a couple of things in that one. The beanbag round itself was ineffective, right, somebody who's under the influence of mental health issues, disorganized thinking, alcohol, drugs. Usually a psychological impact of getting hit with those rounds makes you kind of give up because you don't know how bad it's going to be. But if you're just waiting for the physical hit to make you drop something, there's no guarantees. So I think the taser itself now is up to like just over 50% effectiveness rate. That is not something you'd necessarily want to see in an arm standoff, which is why if you have a taser cover, you got lethal coverage on top of that.
Speaker 6:Beam bag round and taser are typically same same. They're both intermediate force options. You want to use a taser, you use a beam bag round. Some agencies may train that just a little bit different, but typically they're both intermediate force options. They're just long range impact weapons options. They're just long-range impact weapons.
Speaker 6:Um, however, the jury in the criminal case found the officer guilty of official misconduct or uh, uh, yeah, I think it was official, but but uh was it? Uh, they found him guilty of a crime because they said he should have tried the taser before the beam background. That's the level of tactical decision-making. They convicted him of a crime because the juror believed he should have tried the taser first. Now the taser failed when they did try it. But they started with the beanbag round and then tried a taser. I digress for the purpose of your question, but just understand. Typically they are intermediate force options. They're interchangeable with a baton. They're just long-range impact weapons and you typically want to use them when the person's posing a threat of injury to the officer or others Not not serious bodily injury or death, just active assault and resistance is sufficient to use a long range impact weapon typically.
Speaker 3:So a couple of months ago. I think it was a couple of months ago, banning. I think you were on this video ago. I think it was a couple months ago, banning, I think you were on this video. I was not, but there was a video and officers used shotgun, beanbag, round and it ended up killing the suspect. Can you speak to when things go bad, to an intermediate weapon versus a firearm, things like that? Do you remember the call the the video I'm talking about, banning? There's a couple of people talking about it in the chat.
Speaker 2:I've seen three of them with a beanbag grab and that have been fatal, unfortunately. So I'm not sure exactly which one this is. You know those rounds are designed after training to be fired in certain areas of the body, soft points of the body, to gain compliance, to end that threat. And if that round that's okay to go into the gut or into the arm or into the femur were to strike the temple or an eye socket, depending on the range, some soft points to hit an organ, then unfortunately you're going to have that fatal response in some of those scenarios. Vaughn may have actually seen the true ones, possibly around the world that maybe have happened and can speak more to that. But that's just. I've seen some, but I'm sure you can speak on it much better.
Speaker 6:I think I don't remember how many. I might be making this number up so everyone knows its estimate. I think nationally there was like less than 11 deaths associated with a bean bag round. Of all their uses documented, I mean, it's so rare. It's so rare but like everything, if it happens you gotta warn against it. But it is when it's used properly and it actually impacts the aim point, because it's dynamic. The people are ducking and moving, just like you are sometimes. So you don't know, but they're really safe. They're really safe if you're not hitting them in the eye and in the head at close range. You've got to be smart about them.
Speaker 6:The effectiveness of it too. If you guys ever played contact sports, when your mind gets in that I play rugby for years and you're getting hit harder than a beanbag around and it's not stopping you, you're bouncing off that stuff. If you're goal oriented, um, and you don't have the psychological recoil from getting hit by stuff, I mean a lot, of, a lot of officers would be like, oh, we're testing beanbag rounds, I'll be your guinea pig and they'll stand on the line and get shot with beanbag rounds because they've lost the psychological deterrent effect. Now you don't want to hit the same spot more than once. Right, you don't want to hit the same spot more than once.
Speaker 2:Right Hell, because they hurt yeah.
Speaker 3:I may or may not have been hit by one, and I can attest to it hurts like hell, all right.
Speaker 2:So you guys have time for one more. I think we can get one more, I can get one more in. I'm not sure about my own schedule, all yours.
Speaker 6:I thought it was tomorrow night, so I just freed up my whole night tomorrow.
Speaker 3:You're awesome. I appreciate that very much.
Speaker 4:Yes, very much, so, All right so.
Speaker 5:Come on, there it goes.
Speaker 3:Come on, there it goes.
Speaker 1:You're going to love this one. Bannon County units move to TAC-1. Tac-1 in pursuit southbound I-5, coming up to Maytown, little Rock, taking the exit.
Speaker 4:Southbound I-5, approaching Maytown, little Rock, pushing the exit TAC-1, or correction off-court units we'll be on a code 10,.
Speaker 5:Off-court will be on a code 10.
Speaker 1:5-8,. I'm going to try to get him around this corner.
Speaker 5:Take him now. Take him now Going for a grapple at Maytown. Okay, I know it's in the pursuit. Got it on westbound Maytown Road speed to 66 miles an hour and heading southbound on case light traffic.
Speaker 4:Now southbound on case for Maytown light traffic 849. Got it contained. See if smokey's up.
Speaker 5:Fish on fish on fish on he just said fish on.
Speaker 3:That's great that's awesome.
Speaker 2:You know what? I bet that was said to him in training at some, because we usually revert back to the muscle memory and the statements in training. Um, you know, I've heard a lot of uh goods and bads about that. The grappler and I was following this company when they started the creation. I think the first video I saw in them was in 2003 or 2004 when they had a prototype going on somewhere out in the West, either Arizona or New Mexico.
Speaker 2:I think it's a great tool. I do believe that we have to get dangerously close sometimes, but if you can get a good release on this thing, it does bring that vehicle to a better stop than some pits. Can I like the tool I know it's very expensive kind of like the what is that? The StarChase to where we can utilize this and spring that GPS module up onto the vehicle and we can reduce and dispatch, can tell us where, we can look at our CAD and figure out where that vehicle is going and hoping that they're slowing their roll as opposed to a full-on pursuit to limit less lives getting hurt out there. But this, I think, was a great ending on this, von. What are your thoughts on it?
Speaker 6:I always like when technology tries to mitigate the risk to the option is suspect. I mean, pit maneuvers are great. This looks like when it's effective. It's better than that. It's more controlled. Um, I I always go back I think you mentioned to get the gps so you know where the vehicle's at. Um, this comes up in a lot of our cases like but I don't know who's driving the car, right? So knowing where the vehicle at is, I mean, if we're going to do a forensic analysis on the truck, figure out who was driving that night and do a full-on event which we likely aren't going to do um, then we're letting the evidence go, we're letting the warrant go, we're letting the driver and accountability go. We'll find the car and if it's a stolen car, that's great. Right, that's that's important too. And maybe that's the more important thing is hey, we got the car back for you and everyone's happy. But yeah, I've never seen that before. I didn't even know what that was.
Speaker 2:If somebody would ask me what the grappler was, I would have thought it was like the bolo wrap or something I'm telling you, man, these new products when they come out we don't get to see as the consumer or just the general public to see what they go through in the background to create such a monstrosity, is what this thing is If you look at the actual nuts and bolts of. I was very fascinated when it came out because unfortunately, early in my career I was in a lot of pursuits what had came out because unfortunately, early in my career I was in a lot of pursuits I've actually ended more pursuits on my end as opposed to continuing on based on the population of where I was at and as a young guy, testosterone loaded, ready to man. This is so cool. This is just like cops. To terminate that is a small thought in your head, but to terminate that and realize that you're eventually hopefully going to get that and realize that you're eventually hopefully going to get that bad guy before you hurt somebody, that grappler tool, looking back at some of my pursuits, would have been an amazing piece of equipment. But then again, you've got to get close. You've got to close that gap and sometimes these pursuits are really, really fast and if you're thinking about getting your bumper within four feet of that car and getting that grappler, and all it is is a net that wraps up on that rear axle, uh, uh, with attached to the car, and that's the only, that's the only way it's slowing it down. So it's a it's a pretty interesting concept that they have and and I hope it just keeps getting better and better and better.
Speaker 2:So tech, like you said, technology and that's very basic, that's archaic If you look at that. That is. That reminds me of the times and I can't even think of what times it was when they were using these big boulders and the slingshots and shooting them over the castle walls. I mean, we got a sling coming out on a frigging patrol unit and getting it up underneath that car. It's not so much electronic, it's just physics, and it's not so much electronic, it's uh, it's just physics and it's just so neat to see something like that work correctly it makes me think of throwing a stick in your buddy's tire when they're riding a bicycle tire.
Speaker 3:All right, I gotta, uh, I got one that hits close home, uh to home for uh, spanning. And then, uh, this is the last one I've got for us, all right. And then this is the last one I've got for us, all right, all right. Share that guy intersection that's what he said that guy fuck. Yeah, I can't tell get the fuck on the ground.
Speaker 5:Pointed at that guy get on the fucking ground, lay down. I just pointed at that guy Get on the fucking ground, get on the ground, lay down. I'm swelling up 2-12,. One I got in his hand, one I got in his hand. Cover code 3.
Speaker 4:He's pointing at you, that guy. Oh fuck, yeah, I can't tell. Yeah, park, park, park Get the fuck on the ground.
Speaker 7:Get on the fucking ground, get on the ground, lay down.
Speaker 5:I swear to God, to the ground, to the ground To the ground, to the ground, to the ground, to the ground, to the ground, to the ground, to the ground, to the ground. Get on the ground, lay down. I swear 2-12, one at gunpoint. He's got a gun in his hand. Star is covered, code 3. 2-12, shots fired. Push up, push up, push up.
Speaker 8:That guy, oh fuck, to 12 shots fired you just pointed at that guy, you know the fucking ground lay down, he's pointing, he's pointing it shots fired, push up, push up, push up, push up. He's dropped it. I need you to clear up and head down. You have to do it close down on the background. You want to clear out Shots fired. Shots fired Suspect down. Roll over your stomach, away from the gun.
Speaker 5:Coming to you, coming to you Empty hands. Keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing, Keep pushing, keep pushing.
Speaker 4:Put your hands on the back, don't fucking move.
Speaker 8:You good, yeah, 11-0-12. 11-0-12, joaquin, what are you doing? Get the fuck back.
Speaker 1:I think he's getting hit once. Yeah, I think he's getting hit once.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think he's getting hit once. Yeah, I think he's getting hit once.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think he's getting hit once. Yeah, I think he's getting hit once, maybe twice.
Speaker 8:Get your scissors out.
Speaker 1:cut his hoodie off off all the way up, straight up this shoulder.
Speaker 8:I see I got one inch you on the back.
Speaker 3:I mean there, have you seen this video?
Speaker 8:this video. We're good suspects down doing first aid using cuffs. What's your name, buddy?
Speaker 3:So stop sharing.
Speaker 2:So the small print at the top that we never read is suspect points a replica gun at officers. Then we go back to reasonable and prudent. What does a reasonable and prudent person expect when you go out in the general public and point something that is a facsimile of the real thing? I'm going to make a stab at this. You're in Texas. I'm surprised we weren't responding to a crime scene.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean, alan, so that first video that you saw was the complaining party had video of that that called it in saying that there was a subject with a gun.
Speaker 2:And to be in those officers' minds on trying to determine is this real or is it fake? It looks 100% real and it's being pointed at people without their consent, if you want to throw everything in there, and then this happens and this is a very unfortunate ending. But it's one of those. It's a one of those no choice, no choice things. And man, this is, this is a. It's tough, you know. Now these guys got to go home and they got to digest this. Why, you know why, is why is the guy out there pointing a fake gun or whatever you want to call it Dummy gun, facsimile BB gun other than real at folks? And they're doing their jobs. They were communicating, they were moving. At one point they said Spanish. They were making sure that they were trying to cover their bases.
Speaker 2:Last thing that they did and I'm speaking just for law enforcement in general neither one of those guys woke up that morning. They're like man. I sure hope somebody brings a replicant gun out on the street today so I can do deadly force. These guys went out there and they eliminated what was perceived as a high threat, and it was. That's exactly how I would have acted on scene. Somebody's pointing a gun at somebody, either a third person or myself. We're going to eliminate that threat so that victim does not get hurt. I'm going to shut up because I could talk for an hour on it vaughn, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Well, a little shout out to, uh, mr eric levine, that should be on vacation. Should have shot him in the big toe, is his comment. Miss you guy. We're holding down the fort. All right, vaughn, can you tell us your thoughts please?
Speaker 6:I mean, I'd banning straight up. I mean he's right across all the jurisdictions. Cops respond to apparent threats, right, we talked about intent to build a means opportunity. It's, it's reasonable belief. It's not. They don't have to be right, they have to be reasonable and every court recognizes. When it comes to the threat itself, it's an apparent threat, not an actual threat that officers are responding to because in time compressed circumstances there's no time to verify the a replica versus versus a real, real gun. They're not expected to um. So that's all true.
Speaker 6:I would say I saw in the comment how far this was. I don't know how far it was. The video. Things are always appear further in the video than they are in real life. So I'm suspecting this was not that far a shot for a guy to be taken with a pistol, um, the rifle certainly not. But I gave no, no credence to what it looked like on the video. Relative to distance, it was probably a lot closer if the video because remember the fisheye lens it's pushing stuff in the center, out, um, so it makes it look much further out, um, or pulling stuff in on the sides. That being said, I I look at this. If we are supervisors doing an ar, it does not change the legality of it at all. I would you know when I saw that officer.
Speaker 6:Remember officers, the experts. One they remain. They're comfortable in uncertainty. That's the first, one of the first characteristics of an expert police officer. The second is they remain calm in chaos. As things get worse, they get better. Calm in chaos means, as you're seeing that imminent threat, elevate. You do this through training. Through training, you eliminate the bad language, you do your tactical breathing. You have a mantra in your head right, mine was like focus, strength or calm power. So you take that deep breath as you're coming in and in my head I blow out focus, strength and now you're centered. And you do this in training like an Olympic athlete and you're playing these scenarios out so that when you show up on a man with a gun call which is not unusual you're not getting in this hyper arousal state that's impacting your decision making and performance. You're you're the first thing to de-escalation is non-escalation in yourself, and there's a lot of tools out there that that professional athletes and olympians have been using for decades and decades that cops have now incorporated into their training.
Speaker 6:So when I saw that guy, he's kind of calm, he's getting his gun up and all sides and you see his arousal state go up and then it's throwing out the F-bomb. As a supervisor, I'd just be seeing those as signals of an elevated arousal state. He didn't go too far. So when you're looking at the Yerky Dodge, when you're looking at the inverted U, you want to see arousal go up so that you have good performance. You don't want to be too calm. But then if they go over that and they end up too far in the arousal state, performance and decision making decreases. What are the signals of that? It's breathing. It's disorganized thinking, disorganized communication and bad language. You start to see this stuff.
Speaker 6:This guy did a great job. I just saw those as signals. I would take him back and I would do more training with them, do more visualization, get him to remain calm in chaos, get that optimal arousal state without going too far, because remember, we're playing to the public. All that is frosting on the gate. None of that makes us anything other than an excellent decision and an excellent shooting based on what we saw in the video. So that was just. I just want to throw something in there that if I saw that for a tactical action review, those are the kind of things I would talk to the officer about. We followed up with some training and tighten up his shot, just to tighten him up. And I don't tell it. I just tell cops, this is just sharpening the blade, that's all it is. You're going to go see the blacksmith. We're going to sharpen the blade. We're actually going to make you more effective and, by the way, that was a great. That was a great job.
Speaker 2:And I think 100% mirror that. And, being a firearms instructor for years, bringing young guys out and I'm speaking to everybody out there that may want to become a police officer, young folks out there that are looking to do this that's still a very admirable, regardless of what you're seeing on the media. It's a very admirable thing to do to go out there and serve the general public as a law enforcement officer. But when you're coming to the range and I would bring people out there, uh, to the range, and what I'm going to do is I'm going to get that heart rate up. You know, a lot of guys come out at seven o'clock in the morning. The last thing they want to do is run 40 yard sprints three times and then they're going to come into a situation Well, guess what? That's real life. Sometimes we have to endure that and then you can actually see what your body is doing on an elevated status. So we're bonds going out with this. Not only does it, you know, for the public on what we're shouting out there and what we're doing is, and stuff like that, but what's happening to our fine motor skills If we can learn that, those breathing techniques, and make sure that our body physically can take the torment of what's going to happen on patrol on a call like this, your breathing, your patterns, everything going on.
Speaker 2:And when you got to bring this fine motor skills in it, think about the background behind the guy with the gun. When those two officers are having to deliver some rounds downrange to stop that threat. Let's talk about the houses that are behind it. Even if it's his house and it's unoccupied, these rounds have been known to travel very, very far, especially the rifle round. So if you bring that breathing in the fine motor skills, you eliminate that threat. It's less chance of a child or a person or a dog or property, something else other than the intended target, to get struck.
Speaker 2:And that is so important in training. And for those of you just the Second Amendment, folks that are out there that want to carry and I applaud that make sure you can apply the same things If you're going to protect a third person. Protect yourself or a family member that you truly understand what your body is going through when you break leather or you come out of your holster or wherever you keep your firearm. Of what's going on in your brain, housing, group in your heart, and what your body is doing. You would not believe, if you learn those calming techniques on what that can do, and you know shooters will call it MOA. We're bringing in that, bringing in that those fine motor skills to where we're breathing and we're pulling that trigger to where we're hitting the target. That's intended and I'll shut up because I could talk for hours on that as well. But outstanding Vaughn, I appreciate that.
Speaker 3:Eric says, let's be honest too, as Vaughn said, we get these. Calls a ton in bigger cities. Calls a ton in bigger cities. Call it not allowing ourselves to not get amped up or desensitized, because almost every time it's nothing until we see the weapon or until the first shot rings out.
Speaker 2:That is, and if you look at some of these videos out there that they have on training and again we've got one of the best experts in the country sitting here in this in this live podcast with us but what the body does when it re, when it, when it realizes it's a real threat, and he can probably go into the cardiovascular and everything that's going on in your body.
Speaker 2:But your body goes into it and I don't care how bad ass you think you are when you go out there, when you see a real threat you know I'm a big guy, I'm 300 plus pounds and I've gone against guys that are a lot bigger than me but when you realize that is a true threat, your heart, your organs, everything goes into hyperdrive to save the body. And the side effect of that and I'm not speaking medically is what goes on when you're delivering your brain to tell your finger to pull that trigger. And it's unfortunate, but you've got to learn on that. And if you're carrying a gun out there as a civilian or as an off-duty officer or on-duty on patrol, we have got to learn on this to make sure that if we get in a situation like this, that our rounds are accounted for and we're wanting them to go, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3:And I think one thing that gets always brought up when I watch these videos people that aren't used to the environment you immediately think that somebody's out of shape or out of you know. When they start hearing them breathe really heavy and things like that, that's just a normal body response. I'm not saying that all officers are in shape, but when you, when you get to that high, your body responds and you know, one of those ways is you have to get oxygen to your system and and so your body kind of takes over. One of the things that uh showed up for me in that video was the. The officers knew what kind of call they were going to and one of them was ready for the call and the other one got them to the call and jumped out with a rifle.
Speaker 3:And so many times, uh, uh, you can tell there was good training involved in that, because so many times we're taught not to get our rifles out, don't touch the right the rifle, you know is going to escalate the situation and I, if both of them are shooting a pistol, how much more dangerous does the sight downrange get than having, you know, that precision device and precision tool available in the moment? And then, after they utilized that, they put that away and went to work to see about saving this young man's life and getting first aid rendered to him. So kudos to the officers and getting that done. That's what hit home for me.
Speaker 6:They did a great. I mean you could tell they had elevated training too. The communication is the number one thing you look for there. They had good communication. They used shorthand, so you know they talked to each other quite a bit. Push, push, push, push, push, push, push, you know. Stuff like that uh means that these guys are talking to each other. They they're used to working together.
Speaker 6:Um, I always, I always get like a little uh, when we put the gloves on right, you shoot somebody, you got the gun one. My primary concern there is not yet the medical, it's, it's securing them, because we see case after case where there's a secondary weapon or they sprint to access that weapon. Some guys are unconscious, they regain consciousness and return into the gunfight again. These things are rare but there are possibilities that cops are trained to consider and so putting the gloves on, you know, for our own safety, that protective device, because we don't want to get blood on our hands while the guy is bleeding and why he's insecure. Those are always judgment calls. There's tradeoffs, there is all I'll say. I don't think I've ever put gloves on before securing somebody. Once they were secure. I might do that, you know, maybe live up, but you know, that's just a judgment call.
Speaker 6:It's a small thing to point out. It kind of got me. Now, from a litigation standpoint, if the guy ends up dying, they're going to point to that. The opposing side is going to say, look, he's right there. You guys are waiting and waiting. What is 15 seconds? What is 20 seconds? Well, it's a lot when it comes to bleeding out, right? So I noticed that Again, it's a lot when it comes to bleeding out, right. So I noticed that again, it's frosting. It's a small point just to add to the conversation a little bit um but um. Otherwise, I thought they did. They thought they did a great job.
Speaker 3:I do too I can definitely tell from the chat that the principal is not in, uh today, uh controlling the chat room because the chat room has gotten a little questionable, banning. They want to see you go, commando. It's a little awkward, but you know.
Speaker 2:I'm hoping they just mean military mindset. You don't want me going commando. We're going to lose a lot of followers if that happens.
Speaker 3:There are a few wanting to know about, you know, becoming an officer at an older age. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:You know I commend folks that they retire from an entrepreneurial mindset and or military service and they still have years to give, as long as they're physically still there and obviously mentally still there, even when you enter the academy in the state of Texas. Again, that's where we're at, so I'm going to speak on it. You've got to go past that polygraph and you've got to go past the psychological evaluation before you can enter the academy and then you may have to do that again on the agency that picks up your commission. So there are some checks and balances there. Does there need to be more? Sure, I can advocate for that as well. More the better, eric. But if you want to serve and I'm going to call it the second term of your life you've already served in one, either the private sector, for whatever it is, I don't care if it's a target and you're bagging groceries for 30 years and you're like you know what I'm sick of seeing, what I'm seeing out there. I want to go out there and be a part of the solution. More power to you. If you can physically do it and you're mentally ready for this and your family backs you on it 100%, go do it.
Speaker 2:You know, when I went to the Academy back in 2002, I, I went to the Academy back in 2002. I had a guy in there that was I believe he's 55, and another one that was approaching 58 to to go into law enforcement. They didn't serve too much long after they did, they did the Academy but, but they got to serve and they got to to go out there and I don't know if it's proven a point to themselves or just serving the community, but they, they did a good job. As far as I know, I never got to work with them hand in hand except in the academy and uh, age is an age man. Uh, it's where we're at, where we feel, if we're physically ready to go, do it.
Speaker 2:You know, if I was not a cop and I was getting ready to go to the academy in six months, right now, I'm going to start on my cardio plan. Tomorrow I'm going to drop 40 pounds. I'm going to get ready for this. Being a former Marine, I know that I want to bring my 100% best to the street if I take that oath and I'm going to go out there and be protecting people. So, with me, physically, mentally, if you're there, go out and serve man, go do it. I don't care what anybody else tells you. If you have a heart to go do that, go do it.
Speaker 6:I would add my framework for this has changed over the years. You have to admit that the way you think and your brain and your body changes over time and that's okay. I see everybody like a baseball team and everybody has a different position to play. When you're young you might be a pitcher right and you're just going right after one after the other, or you might be the designated hitter because you're fast or something. That's fine, that's your position on the team. But you don't put your right fielder, who is calm, collected, can get good beads on the ball. He's still got some good speed, he can get there, he's got a strong arm. You don't put him on the pitcher's mound. And I think when you look at cops not to take that metaphor too far when you look at cops I'm 53 right now.
Speaker 6:If I go out and want to work the street again, I'm like I know how, what shape I'm in right now and I know what I would work on for me. I would be sprinted. I just go back and sprint some more. I keep up with MMA and jujitsu and that kind of stuff. I wouldn't have any issues. I could probably do that today. I would go shoot right. I do my, my qualifications for my retirement creds, but I go do some tactical pistol courses I've done those since I've been retired but I would put the work back in on that so I would get some of those skills done and then I would slowly get back in to the multitasking that's required from the radio and the street and the MDT and your partner talking to you, Because I noticed when I left the street for a while and then came back, that was the hardest thing is there's so much going on and for some reason it seemed a lot easier before to keep it all straight. When I came back before it was like, okay, slow down, you couldn't listen to multiple frequencies, you only listened to your own frequency. You turned the MDT away from you so you weren't glancing at it when you're driving.
Speaker 6:But having said that, when I was copping in my 20s there were people faster than me. It didn't mean I didn't be a cop. So if I'm copping in my 50s, there's going to be people faster than me, but I'm going to come with a skill stack that they don't have and they have a skill stack that I no longer have or never had, quite frankly. Um, that's okay. Those are just different position players. This is why it's ridiculous we're talking about our men and women better or worse, cops or whatever I'm like. What position are you talking about, and which person, by the way? Because we don't do group identity, right. You tell me who the person is and I'll tell you if that female cop is better than that male cop, because you know we have IBOs, itty bitty officers, right? Either, regardless of sex, an IBO is not going to have the same skill stack as your, as your mongrel man banning over there, Right? So keep that in mind that you're not expected to come in in your 50s and be all things in all positions.
Speaker 6:Come in with whatever skill stack. Recognize what your weaknesses are. When that fast track start takes off, running from you, you're chasing for observation. What is it Chase to pursue, not chase to capture at that point, right, you keep your website calling in. They can't outrun your radio, kind of stuff. But I think you have a lot to give. You have a ton to give, your maturity, your decision-making, your life experience, your ability to build rapport and be compassionate. You bring a huge skill set and if you're wise enough to put the work in on your physical skills, go do work, Yep.
Speaker 3:Absolutely so. This question has gotten brought up several times Vaughn in the last two or three episodes. So what do you think the minimum age should be? Do you think that 21 should stay the minimum age? What is the perfect number? As you're seeing in some of these bigger cases that you you see, and timeout.
Speaker 2:I'm going to give banning opinion on this Vaughn. The dude is is a walking knowledge bomb. I'm going to give dumb cop answer and the dumb cop is to me and I'm going to speak on. When I was 18 in the Marine Corps, I joined the Marines and I went to what's called Marine Corps Security Force Company and had to go through all kinds of clearances and learn CQB and what's called FAST team and got a great skill set for life to go into law enforcement. And I was in the Southeast side of the United States where I was stationed the entire time that I was in. I never got to go on a float to go overseas.
Speaker 2:However, things happen in life and I had to travel, get on a plane as a young 18, 19-year-old fly to Texas for family, either a funeral, somebody's sick, or a marriage or a birth of a baby and if I were lucky enough to get leave, I'd do that. Here's the problem. Banning ran into as a guy that the DOD, the United States Marine Corps, said you can carry an MP5. We're going to give you an M9, which is just a Beretta 9mm. We're going to put all this training into you. You're going to be ready to react. However, if you've got to get on plan and go to Dallas, if you're not 25 years old, I hope you get about 300 bucks for a taxi because the rental car companies do not believe that you are mature enough to go do that. So this is a big argument in my head. There are and this is Banning's opinion. There's no thought other than my life on this. There are some people that are ready at 21 and there's some people are not. If you have that mental ability at 21 and maybe you've gone through some adult things and you're level-headed, I think you might be ready there. But there's some that golly man, I've trained some cops. I look at them I'm like how the hell are you managing a gun sitting next to me in a patrol car? We're going to calls together. Now those problems work themselves out and they get out of law enforcement or maybe grow up a little bit.
Speaker 2:But that's Banning's opinion. I couldn't even rent a frigging rental car anywhere in the country from 97 to 01 because I wasn't old enough to rent a rental car. But they could put me on a frigging carrier and go overseas and fight for the country. So I had a problem with that and you can sit there and say, yeah, but you couldn't drink either. You couldn't do this. I get that, but you're either ready at 21 or you're not. So with Eric saying you know average age of 25, I agree You're a lot more mature at the age of 25. Maybe you've experienced some more things. So I'm going to eliminate Manning's opinion. I'm going to stop and let Vaughn speak, with some real thought behind it.
Speaker 6:No, I think that is real thought and I think again, if we're going to tell the left we don't do identity politics and I'm not going to do it here An age is an identity group and it depends on who the individual is in big part. But we have to have a system by which we can screen them right and bring them on and continue an evaluation once they're on. So maybe between 21 and 25, you've got good athletic people who have lived good lives and they've got all the other skills right Selfless service and duty and physical attributes and courage and all those good things we want to see in cops. And they're 21 years old and you make sure, from 21 to 25, they're always with a supervisor, they're always riding two man, so there's always that direct supervision in their judgment and decisions and training as their brain grows to 25, which is, like you know, on average where your brain stops developing it's full mental. I mean it doesn't have to stop there, but that's the average right? So I can see a system by which we don't have to throw them all out. So you get 21 to 25.
Speaker 6:If I had to have a blanket answer 21 is way too young that's my blanket answer to be a cop. It's just way too young, I like 30s, I like 30s, and. But it also depends on who the individual is. My son just became a cop at 29 years old and I think that was perfect. He had he was military before that. He had a lot of life experience, he was a bodyguard at high levels and he became a cop. And I'm no issues, I think he's. He's exercising great judgment out there and he's still young enough and has the physical skills to carry that stuff out. But, um, having said all that, I mean who hasn't worked with a 40 year old cop who was the most immature, emotionally unscrupulous individual out there?
Speaker 3:right, they're the ones, uh, pulling all the pranks. At, uh, at. Uh, they're the ones pulling all the pranks at role change.
Speaker 6:I think the hardest thing about the young cop, as I saw them, is they need if you work for a big-sized agency, in two months they're going to get so much life experience so fast and in two years they're completely different human beings. So the 21 year old is, no, nowhere near the same person at 23. And you compare that 23 year old to a 23 year old who's never been a cop, they are not anywhere near the same human beings. Right that that police work will change you and it changes you fast. But you need to have, I think, some direct supervision, constant mentorship and guidance and mirrors and feedback during those early years. That once you're released and you think you've got it figured out isn't that the problem? Like, okay, well, you completed the FTO program, you're good to go, and you're like what? 22 and a half now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know how many times and this is just a little comedy with it being in a Crown Vic, and I always revert back to the Crown Vic just to show my age. You know, vaughn, can Vaughn probably drove many, many miles in a Crown Victoria across the country, but you know, sitting there and getting that priority one call. And for those that don't know what that is, you know something that's I'm going to call it balls to the walls. We've got to get there as safe as, as fast as possible to end whatever's going on. And you're in that car and you're finally by yourself and I've had a couple of instances. You know instances getting out of training and you're, you're, you're, get on the radio, you hit in route. If you're looking up to have an mdt and you're going and in your move and you're looking at your speedometer, it's going up and you're, you still got a few miles to go. And you're like, man, this is a really bad call, I'm going to and you look over for that support, that fto that was there, you know, for for six months, five, whatever your, your training curriculum, it is at your department and they're gone. And you, it's a great feeling when you're by, you know, as a rookie, in your car and you're finally by yourself and you're like, oh the relief I don't have a guy yelling at me. There's a reason for all that.
Speaker 2:But I've had a lot of wake up moments going to bad calls and with an agency that actually had a little bit of money. When I was finally with a medium-sized agency to large size agency that I can look at the GPS of the other cars and I'm like I'm blowing these vets away. I'm going to get there three to four minutes faster than they are. And then when you get on the scene, you're like what the hell did I? Just, I'm here, I'm the guy with zero experience and I've got an absolute crap storm in front of me and now I'm going to deal with it.
Speaker 2:And I don't know how many times I've got an absolute crap storm in front of me and now I'm going to deal with it. And I don't know how many times I've had old guys hey, marine, come here After a call, after everything's died down, do you feel better for getting there fast? I'm like, well, I just wanted to come here and stop the threat. Sir, did you get anything accomplished before we got there? No, sir, but I was here and I was ready to Don't move so fast to where you could possibly hurt somebody else on your way to the call and allow us to come into a team, if the time allows, obviously for a lot of this stuff, you know don't outrun your support right.
Speaker 6:You can be the fastest guy on the team and you carry that ball into into enemy territory and you're all alone and unafraid and you're giving them the ball right right. So in the police world, you can outrun your support too. You show up there fast. Now here's what I would say get there in an observational capacity, as long as you're not driving cars off the road. The one thing I would look for in young cops that demonstrates you, you have a place at the table, you have a place on the team, is a recognition that they have a lot to learn still and they're asking a lot of questions. That's why I told my son is ask more questions, ask questions of everybody and listen, because these guys, two years on, have a ton of experience, more than you do, not to mention the five years and the 10-year guys. It comes fast and it comes hard.
Speaker 6:Learn from these guys, but I would say you can be young and if you recognize the limitations of that position on the team, you can be effective. Right, you're not going to outrun your support, you're going to get to observational positions now. Also say this that's really hard to get to young cops, but I will pull them aside. Really fast is when you get a 21-year-old cop lecturing a 45-year-old business owner, giving them life advice, telling them what to do and whatnot like lecturing them, and you're just like, okay, stop, that man has forgotten more about life than you know. Right, and it's frustrating to watch. But you get in that command presence right, and they all of a sudden they're lecturing everybody like they're their parents and I'm like you're 21 years old dude, that guy's like 47. He's run, he's built businesses, you know, he's got a family yeah.
Speaker 2:So, and just to go back on that, you know a lot of people with, uh, my linkedin presence and whatnot. They're man, you must have been just an absolute rock star when you started out. No, no, absolutely I was not. And I'm going to say his name because he's passed and he was never my FTO. But he taught me more than a lot of my FTOs, from whatever agency I was working for, has taught me. And his name is Officer Johnson.
Speaker 2:He worked at Haltom City and this dude was known for finding burglars in between that 1 am and 5 am hour and he was a frigging rock star at it. Okay, we had these industrial areas down by Airport Freeway that would just get frigging hammered by burglars in progress. And, uh, so I was this young guy, uh, the guy selected for canine. So they put me in a rover unit. Um, I helped the department write a grant and I'm like here I'm the smart guy and that's bullshit. I'm not. I. I Googled some shit and learned how to write a grant and got selected for K-9.
Speaker 2:But the bottom line is, as calls were coming out and he was in District 2, and I know I've got some Halton folks that are watching this tonight so they can relate. Either a domestic would come out or a disturbance to where the officer's coming on scene and it's either going to be an informational report to where we're documentation is, may not be an arrest and I would come in. I'm the first one there. I came from eight. You know this is down on one 21. I came from eight 20, you know it's a 10 minute drive at the speed limit but with it being a priority call. I'm using my cherries and berries and I get down there and I get in there and I got my note, my handy dandy notepad out and I'm getting all these people's information.
Speaker 2:And then I'm like finally the beat officer walks in with his cup of coffee and he's 60 something years old and he's like he just walks in and he's quiet and I'm getting all the information. And then he starts getting information from somebody else and then, once he's done getting that information, he tears it out of his notepad, he hands it to me and he's like here you go, you son of a bitch, this is for your report. And I was like oh, this is your beat sir. I'm just, I was here to help you to get everything. I'll write a supplement. And he's like hey, dumbass, you want to be first to everywhere, you're doing everything, you want to be this, this number one dude on something that you don't have to go this quick to.
Speaker 2:It was a big life learning thing for me. So once I pulled about 15 reports out of this guy's beat, I learned really, really quick hey, you don't have to go to these places and you do need to respect the beat of these guys that have been working there 20 plus years, that know most of the people in there, and it was a big eye opener to me. I had some great FTOs, but the FTOs are going to teach you the very, very basics on what policies and procedures are. They're not necessarily going to teach you how to be a cop, and I learned from these guys that have the 80s and 90s and they came up and they know how to talk to people and they do different things. I'm not talking about people that are pulling slapjacks out of their pockets and using them on folks like the old days. I'm talking about guys that stood the test of time. They're really good police officers. They may be looked at as lazy because they're not doing a hundred traffic stops in a 12 hour period, but these guys will catch burglars from left to right.
Speaker 2:So I finally took my Marine Corps ego and put it aside and said you know what I need to learn? I may be of the age to be a police officer. I'm through the training. I've been to hundreds of calls already, a lot of pursuits. I'm a canine officer now and I'm a rover, so I'm not expected to take report, but I'm out here to produce. Maybe it's time to go back to step one and truly learn of what you're supposed to do as a B-Cup.
Speaker 2:And so I chose several people within my career that I emulated or mirrored and that truly helped me design who is banning Swetland as a law enforcement officer. You know, banning is a different person at the house, as the husband, as the father of his children, stuff like that, but but but who is banning as a law enforcement officer? I thought I had it figured out and I didn't. So it's.
Speaker 2:It's a lot for me to say that in front of however many people are watching right now, but I but I'm very humbled at how we learn as uh, as people of society when we are, we get injected into a new career and I thought I knew everything. I thought I was Billy bad-ass coming out of the Marine Corps. I was in shape. Uh, you know, my, my, my, my kukka didn't stink and I'm out there doing the thing. But I learned so much from these old guys and gals that have gotten the picture of what law enforcement truly is, and I learned more from them than I did from any one of my FTOs. So I'm going to leave it at that and we can truly learn.
Speaker 2:So these gentlemen and ladies that have already lived life being an entrepreneur or whatever job they're in. Man, I got something else in me. Maybe I can go do the academy and I come out and be a school resource officer. I come out and be a traffic whatever their mind and their body will allow them to do. If that's something that they truly want to do, I hope, to God, they push forward and go do it. As long as they're able to do that specific task. Nice Well, alan, I think we lost you. I think you. There we go, no.
Speaker 3:I'm here. Well, gentlemen, it's been a pleasure tonight. We've been going strong for three hours. No-transcript, I'm just joking. Uh, the question is from, uh, mr billfold and I. I remember when he started following us. So I'm just wondering why it seems that two cops, one donut crew and their guests, like vaughn, are the exception instead of the rule. So so why? You know? One of the things that amazes me about when I first started listening to the podcast is it doesn't matter which part of the country you go around and where we get the different officers on the show. We all tend to do the job the same way and get the job done the same way. Why is it that we have this mindset? Um, and so many officers, uh, fall off the sidewalk per se, and I'll. I'll leave that to you guys, you think okay.
Speaker 6:So here's what I makes her understand the question. I have had a career surrounded by amazing cops, like a bad cop is the exception, they're the rare exception. We we weed them out pretty fast. The news media looks at the planes that crash instead of all the planes that land safely, and then they play that on a loop to make sure even the rare planes that crash are played over and over and over again to make society have the appearance that they should remove the legitimacy of its law enforcement. The reality on the street and the relationships with the communities look nothing like that in my experience. So, by the way, my job was to never be the best of anything as a cop. It was to deserve my place at the table and to not be the weak link, because I was surrounded by cops who were just like me and working just as hard as I was. Now we distinguished, we knew the cops. Like I said, it's a baseball team. That right fielder doesn't want to go out.
Speaker 6:I got a tattoo that says Signal 49. To me it means to identify, close with and destroy evil. What it really means is out of car with walkie-talkie, right. It means I'm doing foot patrol, I'm getting out into the street. I'm going to look for crime, I'm being proactive. So we have Signal 49 culture, but not everybody was part of that culture. Some just wanted to shag calls and that was okay. So you can kind of see within the agency, those who were doing MMA, they were shooting, they wanted to be SWAT guys, they wanted to be Signal 49 culture, they were getting after it. And the other ones who just wanted to shag the calls, they wanted to do the sro duties. They wanted to and they all had a position on the team and we and we don't judge each other, you just go put the work in and where you with your skill set. Um, I was surrounded by cops who ran to the sound of gunfire. They stopped the bleeding, start the breathing. They, they, they held the hands of people who were dying.
Speaker 6:They, I mean, I mean it was we could all like if this was a great experiment if I handed out three by five cards to your department. I said everybody list the top five absolutely worthless cops on this department. They might be in a different order, but you're going to see the same five names. Everybody knows who the small group of standout bad cops are on any department. So when I hear the question is are you the exception? Absolutely not. Like I've been surrounded my whole career by phenomenal human beings, men and women, who were just getting after it, and they were absolutely committed to their communities. They absolutely put the work in.
Speaker 6:I hate this idea of legitimacy. Like we have to earn our legitimacy back. I saw the largest influence on how cops lost legitimacy is some cop would do something in one state, in one city one time and it would spread across as though it was representative of the entire American law enforcement. So that in Topeka Kansas they're changing their policies because of something that happened in Minnesota and I was like this has nothing to do with us. Do we have a problem in Topeka Kansas with that incident? And the answer is no. It's never happened here before. Then why are we buying into the media narrative that cops across the country are racist, abusive and corrupt. It just does not.
Speaker 6:And and and I'll I'll end on this the left-leaning liberal university professors and researchers who tried to prove that cops are racist, abusive and corrupt were unable to do it, in fact showed the opposite, and so they scratched their research and they tried it again. They got a whole new team of researchers because they knew cops are racist, abusive and corrupt. They just now had to demonstrate it and they got a whole new team and they couldn't do it. Look at, look at Professor Cesario, Look at Roland Fryer, Look at their work. They tried to demonstrate the corruption of cops, the racism of cops, and they were unable to do it. That's more reflective of the of the culture and the profession that I knew of the culture and the profession that I knew 100%.
Speaker 2:Man, that's amazing. Well, Alan, I appreciate you putting these videos together tonight, Von. Yeah, let's talk about our sponsors for two seconds before we end this.
Speaker 3:Go ahead, alan. So, guys, reach out, go and take care of our sponsors. Ghost Patch, they have a fancy. All their products are amazing. This is like a real badge. You can hear the ting this guy. Just go to their website, website, take care of it. They take care of us. You know, uh, it's the small things like that that help us. Help eric. So, uh, we appreciate eric so much and uh, um, reach, go to our website, twocopsonedonutcom and you can see all the other sponsors there. We appreciate everybody being out there tonight and joining in with us. Many of you have asked why we're doing Tuesday night. Congratulations, banning, on a successful anniversary. You made it through to tonight and next week. I do think we're trying to do Monday, but we're going to be a little. We're going to let you know sooner than later. We're just Benny and I. Both are traveling and we'll have another week without Eric. So, vaughn, appreciate you having being here tonight and Benny, you got anything for us.
Speaker 2:No, you know, next week, the 20th, is my birthday and I think I'm traveling out to Vegas. I mean, that's a tough life man. I got to travel out to Vegas on my birthday for work, business development, and no, you know, if we don't, monday or Tuesday or whatever that date is, I haven't even looked at the calendar, but I'm looking forward to going out to SHOT Show. So those of you that are law enforcement and reserve your comments and you're just watching the show, if you're going to be out at SHOT, make sure you look up Vaughn for science. I want you guys to get into this class that they're putting on. I mean, this is muy importante, very, very important. You do this. Make sure you go by and see all the vendors that are out there. Mark 43 is not going to have a vendor this year. I'm going out there solo. I'm kind of scouting this.
Speaker 2:I've been out to shot several times as an officer or purchasing agent for a department or a nonprofit in the past. But looking forward to meeting up with Vaughn, going to meet up with Kyle Reyes. While we're out there, we're going to meet up with lots of folks. Man, I'm pretty sure Friday's with Frank. Frank Slope's going to be there. He's going to have his camera crew there. There's going to be a lot of good things going on at SHOT Show this year. It's getting more exciting each year. This is kind of the Super Bowl for everything hunting, some law enforcement. I'm saying it's probably more hunting and firearms than it is law enforcement, but there is a big piece of that pie that is for law enforcement out there and I'm excited to go see uh and get uh ingested into it and meet a lot of new people with different departments out there.
Speaker 2:And thank you all so much for watching tonight. Thank you, alan, for doing the videos. Von takingughn taking your time out. Let me explain to everybody. I texted Vaughn two hours before we went live and I said probably not going to happen. Would you like to come on the show? Vaughn, real quickly is like I'm in period, period, period. I probably should have put in that text it's in two hours, not tomorrow night. Yeah, I was like we should have put in that text it's in two hours, not tomorrow night.
Speaker 6:Yeah, hey.
Speaker 6:I do want to thank you guys for having me, though. This is a lot of fun. I enjoy it. Tuesday, january 23rd at SHOT Show. 1045 AM is when we start. Tuesday, january 23rd, shot Show. It's Vertra, the simulator company, and Force Science putting on joint training. Come out and see us. And also, I'm just going to ask I'm on LinkedIn only.
Speaker 6:4science is on Facebook. It's on social media, it's on LinkedIn, I'm just on LinkedIn. If you guys come in, connect with me on there, bring a couple of your friends, connect with me, follow us. 4science News is free. You can sign up for it. We won't sell your emails. I've got another article coming out tomorrow. I think you guys will like it, at least the stuff I write. I try to write it for the community and for cops, to set realistic expectations, so I think you're going to enjoy it. Give a good perspective on what's actually going on out there. But connect with me on LinkedIn and bring some friends. I'm trying to get those connection numbers up so we can extend some influence. And again, everybody, thank you for your attention, for staying with us this late. I absolutely appreciate it. Thank you, banning and Alan, for having me and Eric, if you're still watching, thank you for having me as well.
Speaker 2:I'm sure Eric's still watching Sure, sure, he is, even though he's out of pocket and doing that thing. This is his baby. I'm sure he's watching. And Eric, he's done an amazing. This is Eric's baby. We're all here just to help kind of push it along, but Eric has done an amazing job doing, you know, two cops, one donut, and I'm glad to be a small part. I know Alan is too, and Vaughn, this is your second time. You've blessed us with your presence and just from the comments on there, the people they're loving it, man, they know that you have the background for it and we appreciate your time, brother.
Speaker 3:So, thank you. We'll have to make sure to put your name as Wizard Vaughn next time. We got Big Rope.
Speaker 6:Wizard Vaughn. They're going to insult me when they call me an attorney.
Speaker 4:I was like they say a cop of the law degree if you want to have me buy you a drink?
Speaker 6:Hey, thank you guys. I'm going to say goodnight, appreciate it, y'all.
Speaker 2:You bet Vaughn Hang around for two seconds. Vaughn, we're about to go off, but appreciate it, guys. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Night guys.
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