2 Cops 1 Donut
We were asked “what exactly is the point of this show?”Answer: social media is an underutilized tool by police. Not just police, but firefighters, DA’s, nurses, military, ambulance, teachers; front liners. This show is designed to reveal the full potential of true communication through long discussion format. This will give a voice to these professions that often go unheard from those that do it. Furthermore, it’s designed to show authentic and genuine response; rather than the tiresome “look, cops petting puppies” approach. We are avoiding the sound bite narrative so the first responders and those associated can give fully articulated thought. The idea is the viewers both inside and outside these career fields can gain realistic and genuine perspective to make informed opinions on the content. Overall folks, we want to earn your respect, help create the change you want and need together through all channels of the criminal justice system and those that directly impact it. This comes from the heart with nothing but positive intentions. That is what this show is about. Disclaimer: The views shared by this podcast, the hosts, and/or the guests do not in anyway reflect their employer or the policies of their employer. Any views shared or content of this podcast is of their opinion and not intended to malign any religion, ethnic group, club, organization, company, individual or anyone or anything. 2 Cops 1 Donut is not responsible and does not verify for accuracy any of the information contained in the podcast series available for listening on this site or for watching shared on this site or others. The primary purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. This podcast does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services.
2 Cops 1 Donut
The Role of Emotional Intelligence in Modern Policing
Join us on an insightful exploration into the world of law enforcement with special guests Von Kleem from Force Science and Officer Jared Kosina, who brings his unique perspective as a reservation cop managing three jurisdictions. Discover the pivotal role social skills play in policing, as Jared shares firsthand experiences about defusing tense situations and building community trust. Von complements this dialogue by discussing the potential for social skills assessments in recruitment processes, offering a fresh take on the future of law enforcement hiring.
Navigate the complexities of cognitive load management in high-pressure situations, with a deep dive into the OODA loop—Observe, Orient, Decide, Act—and its impact on officer decision-making. Through real-life examples, we examine the effects of stress on perception and the importance of training to manage arousal states effectively. Our conversation broadens to cover the critical need for professionalism and emotional intelligence in police interactions, highlighting how transparency and community engagement can foster trust and collaboration between officers and the communities they serve.
We also address the challenging topics of police misconduct and accountability, exploring the ethical dimensions and legal rights involved in law enforcement interactions. Our discussion includes the importance of body cameras and the impact of constant surveillance on officer behavior, emphasizing the need for balance between transparency and privacy. With engaging insights and real-world anecdotes, this episode promises to offer valuable perspectives on the multifaceted challenges and responsibilities faced by today's law enforcement officers.
#police #lawenforcement #cops #bridgethegap #bethechange
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Disclaimer Welcome to Two Cops One Donut podcast. The views and opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Two Cops One Donut, its host or affiliates. The podcast is intended for entertainment and informational purposes only. We do not endorse any guest's opinions or actions discussed during the show. Any content provided by guests is of their own volition and listeners are encouraged to form their own opinions. Own volition and listeners are encouraged to form their own opinions. Furthermore, some content is graphic and has harsh language viewer discretion advised and is intended for mature audiences. Two cops one donut and its host do not accept any liability for statements. Now, all right, welcome back to Cops 1 Donut. I am your host, eric Levine, my co-host and big red bastard man Banning Sweatland. What's going on, brother?
Speaker 2:What's up?
Speaker 1:brother Excited for this how are you doing today, man, where you at?
Speaker 2:I'm actually home. I'm home for at least another week, I think.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, there we go. That's been a first for us. Today, guys, we have two special guests. We have one for maybe a short period of time, which we've had on here before Mr Von Kleem from Force Science. How are you, sir?
Speaker 3:Good Thanks for giving me a call and inviting me. I was glad you said, do you guys have like 45 minutes? And I was like, maybe between dinner and report writing, we'll take you for as long as we can get you.
Speaker 1:But the man of the hour tonight is Officer Jared Kosina. Now, guys, jared is a reservation cop. He has three jurisdictions under his belt, which is very rare. So for that I want you guys to keep that in mind to ask him questions, because he's going to have a much, much different perspective than all of us here on the panel, and it's just, it's going to be cool to pick his brain and talk about what he does where he's at. But, jared, thanks for being on tonight. Buddy, how are you doing?
Speaker 4:good, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:I'm doing wonderful. I see that you are still stunning to look at on camera, thank you. Thank you, I got a fresh cut just for you. I like it. Yeah, I'm. I'm kind of holding off. I've got my military time coming up here February 23rd, so I kind of skipped a week to get my haircut and then it's all going to get trimmed the beard. But no, thank you guys for being on here. Tonight is going to be primarily we're going to push you two to answer the questions. The good part is we got tons of people that will chat and talk with us in the chat section here and we will highlight that stuff. Matter of fact, let me get the chats going up here. Just say hey to everybody. Um, mr Bill fold is back. Uh, mr Bill fold, scene Vaughn made my back spasm again. Uh, I told you, vaughn, you have an effect on people.
Speaker 3:Uh, you guys will notice if I had a dollar for every time that happened.
Speaker 1:Alan is not here today, guys. He couldn't make it, but he is chiming in, so at least he's here to support Love it. David Edmonston's jumping on. We originally had David start in from LinkedIn. He's jumped over to YouTube. Appreciate you, guys and guys I'm going to throw this out there If you like what we're doing and you want to support what we're doing, says is that the yearly two weeks, sir, it is 24 days and I do it all in one stint, so I am gone basically a month when I do my time.
Speaker 1:Mr Belfold said Vaughn is a force science wizard. He has that effect on me. Michelle, talking to my mom my mom's up on here. Mr Billfold, howdy, my whole body is shaking. It's cold here in Texas. It's just not right. It is kind of cold in here. So, jim Miner, love the show. Thanks, buddy, appreciate you, man. So, guys, I'm going to.
Speaker 1:We start the show off the same way all the time. We kind of figure out a topic or we'll show some stuff from Two Cops, one Donor, that we've been posting out there and we've been getting a lot of feedback about. So let's, let's jump into that. There's been some stuff that has caused quite a bit of talk. So this next one, vaughn and Jared, is I push officers quite a bit about social skills and I say that part of our job is to be aware of our own social skills and what we say in our tone and stuff has a lot to do with where a call develops and in police work. One of our biggest flaws in the hiring process is we do not really have a social skills test. We have a mental health test, we have a physical fitness test, we have a credit check, we have all these wonderful tools, but I think everybody on the panel here would agree the most important skill, 99% of what we do, is our social skills. Jared, what do you got on that?
Speaker 4:Oh, it's for sure. I mean I don't know how many times I've talked myself out of getting in a fight or talk myself into getting in a fight or stalling until your backup arrives. I don't know how you could do the job without social skills, reading people as soon as you get to the call and you know something's off or something doesn't feel right. And in my buddy who trains at the academy he said just that he goes the. The recruits that he gets coming through aren't up to par. Basically they, they lack that basic basic skill yeah, von what is your?
Speaker 1:have you? Have you talked at all um in your experience about a social skills test or um measurement for people when they get hired on as police?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think there. I mean, there's a lot of good tests for that. Even your character, your personality test, like a five big five personality test, will give you a pretty good idea of where people fall. But it's a. You're looking for emotional intelligence, yes, instead of iq. It's your ability to to know yourself, know other people, know how you influence other people and how they influence groups, and you know it's partly. You can train it, you can, but it's mostly, uh, some of you just born with like people have higher eq than other people. People have higher iq than other people.
Speaker 3:But what we do and you guys remember the good old verbal judo training, right, we're going to give you a script and if you use this script, at least for your introduction, you, as a first year low eq member of this department, can sound just like a high eq, first year low EQ member of this department, can sound just like a high EQ five-year veteran, right, and you can fake it and you get better over time when you start to see the success. But I will tell you this the some people at that age, they are who they are. You're not going to develop them at a higher level of EQ, but you can. You can incentivize them to use the script, to use the frontal brain to control their lizard brain. Right, and I remember this.
Speaker 3:I might've shared this before, but this guy kept coming back when I was teaching our de-escalation program and every time they'd get in trouble they'd send them back. So you get a certificate of completion. By the time this guy, he'd come back like the fourth time I made a certificate of phd in verbal judo phd de-escalation, because he'd been to the class like five times and uh, I was like man, this guy, he just doesn't get it. He chose not to because I backed him on a call one night up in north, on north kansas avenue, which was a you know some bars up there and and this big boy wanted to fight him. And this boy was big and angry and mean and this guy was not going to fight him. And let me tell you who became very good, very fast at de-escalation and communication and peace phrases. I was like, yeah, I knew you had it in you, you just needed to be incentivized.
Speaker 1:Freeman Keyes had a great question. He said serious question why, after an officer throws someone on their head and knocks them unconscious while they're having agonal breathing, do they say stop resisting? Um, I'll lead the way on this. Uh, just to soften uh the the answers a little bit. Um, and this goes into vaughn's definitely uh realm here.
Speaker 1:But a lot of times when we start to go use force if it's not something that we're 100% comfortable with using force and we know we're about to go hands-on with somebody. Not every cop has this ability. Me, I'm a little different. I've done grappling for a long time. I'm desensitized a lot. So for me it's just another day at the office, so I don't get worked up. So when I take somebody down, it's very easy and quick for me to assess the damage that's happened and move from there.
Speaker 1:Other officers it's not. Their brain hasn't caught up yet, because they've got the adrenaline, they've got all these things going on. Brain hasn't caught up yet because they've got the adrenaline, they've got all these things going on. So they are going through the mental training and reps that they've had hundreds and thousands of times. When they use force they take somebody to the ground. They're like stop resisting, stop fighting. Stop fighting, because it's been ingrained in them and they're saying it and their brain hasn't caught up to what's actually happened in front of them yet. And their brain hasn't caught up to what's actually happened in front of them yet. So that's kind of the way that I see it, but I'm going to flex this one over to Vaughn and then we'll let Jared talk.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's right. It's this level of automaticity, right, that's what we call it. Right, you've done it so much you're not thinking about it. We've seen guns fly out of people's hands and they go drop the gun, drop the gun, drop the gun, drop the gun. And everyone can clearly see the guy has already thrown the gun, right? But it's that level of automaticity because of training. That's part of it. That's one layer.
Speaker 3:The other layer is, um, when you guys all know when, when you get a hyper arousal state, right, your body is going to react differently. Adrenaline affects perception, cognition and decision making, right, so they're not seeing it. They're literally not seeing it. And and that's why in MMA and Eric you talk about this, how many times is somebody unconscious? And it takes the ref to pull the guy off? Right, they're still throwing punches of a guy who we can see is clearly unconscious.
Speaker 3:Um, so they're not doing a threat assessment. So I'll stop here, because there's layers upon layers upon layers about why that happens. So the big three is one, it's automaticity. Two, their adrenaline has impacted their perception and cognition, right, and such that they're not actually perceiving. And the other one is we can't simultaneously evaluate and perform. They've evaluated a threat. I've decided I got to do something. I then do it, and as long as I'm engaged in that performance, including the yelling, the giving the directions, the physical performance you're not simultaneously evaluating.
Speaker 3:Now how do you mitigate that reality? Just what you said, eric. You train to a point where you're so confident in your own competence that you maintain an optimal arousal state. You don't panic, you stay calm. I think all of us who've been in a lot of fights over the years get to a point where you don't even get excited about a fight. You just don't even get excited. Well, that not getting excited is what allows you to continue to do really good threat assessments. And so you wouldn't. You wouldn't do that. That's just three. There's even more reasons why that happens, but I'll stop there and kick it over to jared yeah, I've.
Speaker 1:I've told my guys before. I was like if you see sarge get worked up, it's bad, you need to be there and help me, because if I'm getting worked up it's bad, you need to be there and help me, because if I'm getting worked up it's bad because it takes a lot to get me moved anymore. But, jared, go ahead, brother.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean picking up what Vaughn said. It's the OODA loop. Those of you not familiar with the OODA loop, but OODA loops, in the acronym, basically stands for observe, orient, decide and act. And what happens sometimes is you are so jacked up on adrenaline that you keep, you can't break that oodle loop and you keep going and going and going. So that's why you hear drop the gun, drop the gun. Drop the gun when the guy's already on the ground and in handcuffs, and it's because you get the adrenaline, dump the new officers that aren't experienced, and that's what happens. Um, and as von said, yeah, you get to a point in your career where you don't get as excited and you know a fight. If something happens, you, you get annoyed, you don't, you don't get excited about it.
Speaker 1:So it's it's training and it's a lot of breathing exercises and getting your mind right yeah, the breathe the breathing really does the, the combat, breathing, or whatever you want to call it that that stuff can help, for sure von. Do you have something?
Speaker 3:yeah, we should talk about that aspect of it because there's a bigger conversation on how to maintain optimal arousal states, because the breathing is one small piece. But just to say, when we look at cases and we see stuff like that on videos, we see that as evidence consistent with a high cognitive load. Right, it means they're probably getting on the verge of there's too much going on at once for them. So that's evidence of a high cognitive load, which means there are certain things we can expect of them. And a funny example I had in a case recently was a guy who when he looks at the guy had a taser and when they it was, they ended up shooting the guy. When they rolled the guy up to clear him, uh, he was deceased. At that point the the responding officer says he's got a camera. He's got a camera and a weird reaction.
Speaker 3:Think about it he's yeah, but why did he do it? Who makes tasers?
Speaker 1:Axon.
Speaker 3:Who makes the cameras? Your body cam Usually.
Speaker 4:Axon.
Speaker 3:Axon, yeah, axon. So he thought he saw it, thought Axon, his brain it was such a high cognitive load he was so stressed out he flipped it. He just he's got a camera, he's got a camera and he was like Taser and I was like, oh, that's really interesting. His brain flipped the taser and I was like, oh, that's, that's really interesting. His brain flipped, the connection being they're both manufactured by axon, so I would not be surprised if he saw it. I don't know if the taser actually says axon on it. I think some of them actually say axon on the side. He probably saw that word instantly because of his high cognitive load shot out, the first thing that he thought of in that's associated with axon. So that's only somewhat related. But it's when people are are doing that repetitive, that repetitive command and you're like, okay, dude, he's, he's already in handcuffs, stop, or he's already dropped the gun, or you know. That is evidence of a high level, of a high cognitive load and it's also evidence of the sincerity of the threat that they've perceived.
Speaker 1:Interesting, See. This is why I like having Vaughn on here. It's like having your own scientist. All right let me play this video here. I think I just have to. I always get a little leery when I'm playing different types of videos here. Social skills issues.
Speaker 5:Thank you for having an American flag on your uniform. I appreciate that. What kind do you wear? What's your name and badge number? I'm Officer Virginia with the Alexandria Police Department. Okay, what's your badge number? 2612. Okay, great, and what don't I need to worry about? This is police business right now. You don't need to worry about what's going on.
Speaker 1:It doesn't. This is very common amongst police officers, so this was kind of the controversy when we had this discussion. Now I want to preface this auditor. I'm not even 100% sure he's an auditor, because here's what I want to point out as a cop it looks like it's an apartment complex. That is not a normal place for an auditor to show up. Complex, that is not a normal place for an auditor to show up. So I do believe that this person probably lives in this area. He may be an auditor, I don't know, and I want to acknowledge that I don't agree with his approach either. I think he is kind of being antagonistic, a contrarian if you will, and you'll hear why here in a second. That isn't the point of this. I hold cops to a higher standard and the way we come across. We were just talking about how we communicate. I love that.
Speaker 1:Vaughn brought up EQ, emotional intelligence, however you want to call it. We tend to feed off of each other's energy and us as police, we need to have good energy, especially on something like this. That is not. We're not dealing with an actual criminal here, guys. We're not dealing with, you know, a bad guy situation. We're dealing with maybe a possible asshole situation. That's it. And the beauty of America is you got the right to be an asshole if you want to be an asshole. You know, it's kind of the way I see it. So the point I'm trying to get for all you guys here on the panel I'm trying to set the platform here is I'm not worried about his behavior. That's not the point of this. My point is us as officers, we hold ourselves to a higher standard and her coming across with the secret squirrel stuff this is, you know, it's none of your business, it's a police matter. Like is that how you started the conversation off? I don't like that.
Speaker 5:So I'm going to keep playing it and I want you guys to keep that in mind. Okay, well, I'm seeing four cars in my neighborhood.
Speaker 1:You think it's professional to say don't worry about it, or you can see the difference in tone. The supervisor came over hands, kind of looks like they're just in his pockets. He's chill, more relaxed. Hey, can I help you? What's going on? That guy asked him his badge number. He's not being an asshole. Now. I don't think the other officer did anything technically wrong. I'm not saying that. So I'm not saying that person did anything technically wrong, but I'm going to keep just keep these things in mind. Here's how my brain functions, guys. I want you to figure out how my brain works, so let's keep going.
Speaker 5:Supervisor. Yes sir, Thank you, I'm done with you. So I approached her. I just said hey, what's going?
Speaker 1:on. I'm done with you. Okay, I'm with you guys. I understand that it's not the way we want to talk to people, but she says don't worry about it.
Speaker 5:And I asked her for her name and badge number. Then there's this whole all on camera, super slow moving, taking my time. It's all a show of disrespect. Is it respectful when a citizen in their neighborhood is concerned about four police cars Asking? She says don't worry about it. Is that professional behavior? Well, what is the initial concern? As far as I live in this neighborhood, I see four police vehicles huddled over here. Okay, I come over, I'm wondering if there's is there a public safety concern? Has there been a theft? Has there been any crime? And so I asked her and she says don't worry about it, police business don't worry about it. Is that what you said? Yeah, did you do it with attitude? Remember you're on camera? Did you do it with attitude? It depends on if you believe I have attitude.
Speaker 1:Okay, that was an integrity check question and she flipped it and said he said did you do it with attitude? And she goes well, that depends on if you believe I did it with attitude. That's not what he's asking. He's asking did you think you did it with attitude? And she doesn't answer the question. I'm going to end it there. She doesn't answer the question because she knows she did it with attitude. Now, guys, again, she didn't do anything illegal. She didn't do anything technically wrong. There's nobody that's going to say in a police department that what she did was wrong. She gave you what information she could and she was not wrong. So I'm going to leave it at that. Jared, I see you smiling. I'm very curious because you come from a very different atmosphere than what we work, what we have worked.
Speaker 4:We've all been there, we've all been that officer where you get the people that want to know and you've got to flip it and look at it from their perspective and you know there's things that you can't say. You know there's some situations where you can't divulge information. But you can say, hey, you know we had a disturbance, or hey, there was an incident involving your neighbors. Everything's okay, everything's safe, you're safe. Give them a something.
Speaker 4:I literally had the same situation happen when I was coming home and there was six police cars in my neighborhood and I went up to the officer and I asked them and I was in uniform, by the way. I asked them, hey, everything okay, do I need to worry about anything? And he goes don't worry about it, nothing you didn't know. And I was like, wow, that was kind of rude and I said that to his face. He's, that was kind of rude and I said that to his face. He's like, well, I don't have time for this right now. So I walked over to his supervisor and I told him what? Just the experience of his supervisor told me everything I wanted to know. But I was like, hey, man, you might want to get your officer in check. There there's a little bit of attitude, especially, you know, coming from another officer right.
Speaker 1:So, vaughn, I want to get your take on this. I like he's giggling already.
Speaker 3:This is an entire semester of what not to do. You're right, it's not illegal. But the thing is is, you know, professionals, we get better as things get worse and we take control of the communication outcomes. We don't let other people control them. And she didn't do any of that. Now my thing about her motive. Like you're right, we're, if you're not threatened. You know this idea of command presence. What she was doing was trying to exert what she understood to be as command presence to take control of the situation. That other guy was not at all intimidated, he wasn't concerned, he came up, he answered the question and you see that.
Speaker 3:So, as a supervisor, when you see her like, hey, come here, let me let's, and you say you could have avoided all that, and you war game it. Because we do war game this specific scenario, and sometimes you literally do not have time to explain yourself, nor are you legally required to explain yourself when you're in the middle of an investigation, right, and so if you say, like when I was working in the inner city, I used to say stuff like, hey, you know what, I wouldn't put your business out there. I don't want to put these, these people business out there, let me deal with that. I'll come back to you and explain to you as much as I can, but let me go make sure we deal with this first. And if you're telling them, I'm not disrespecting, I'm going to come back and talk to you. It's just not going to happen right now. So I get to maintain control of the time, place and location of my interactions, but I'm not being so dismissive. Most people understand that and really for me it was easy when I'd say, because they knew, would you want me telling everybody in the city your business if I respond to your house on a call and they know that they don't want that? So I'm like no, I don't want to put their business out, let me go talk to them. Then I'll come back to you and tell you as much as I can. But if I was, if I was you and this is the empathy thing, look, it was my, it was my neighborhood I'd wonder the same thing. So let me go deal with this, let me come back and I'll explain to you as much as I can, but just hang out here for a second and and I will find you. So all that doesn't take as long as the 15 seconds it took me to say it, right.
Speaker 3:So you control the outcome of that and you set the tone. Control the outcome with with a lot more conveyed respect, right, but having said that, you know, like she didn't do anything wrong or whatever, she didn't do it as well as she could have done it, and a supervisor needs to pull her over or pull her aside and train her to that what she's actually trying to achieve the end state of command, presence and displaying confidence and competence. She did the opposite. She ended up doing the opposite, coming across like she was afraid and she was already bowing up to say I'm not afraid of you, but it was very clear she was not comfortable at that interaction, which was probably the opposite of what she wanted as a goal. So I think, once you get her off to the side, you explain hey, we have the same goal. You want to exert confidence and competence and take control of the situation. Let me give you some ideas on how to do that better. That's going to leave them feeling better about the interaction, leave you feeling less stressed about the interaction.
Speaker 3:And again, I say it's a semester, because this is precisely what verbal Judo was designed to do. It's what realistic de-escalation does. It's what community tactical communication programs do. There is a lot now I Will end with. I'll end with this I Didn't see a lot of cops do this and act like this, but we always knew who on the department would Do. But thankfully this was really unusual. I mean, we had 300 300 person department, so it wasn't huge. But, um, I would say, overwhelmingly most people knew how to manage communication much better than what we saw there and the ones that didn't. If you passed out a three by five card, the entire department would have them on that card.
Speaker 1:I know exactly what you mean. Go ahead, Vanny.
Speaker 2:I'm going to read this, mr Belfold good comment. It says police ought to understand that we match energy with police and we need level-headed officers to deal with people like me who can be a prick from time to time. I think Mr Belfold and I would probably have a great time in a bar. Here's what I've seen across doing an investigation If anybody's up from the general public to the news media, yada yada, yada.
Speaker 3:Banning's breaking up pick on bond's internet is the pio am I good now?
Speaker 1:yeah, it might be a green screen. Yes, no for whatever reason, green screens tend to screw things up. Am I good now? Yeah, it might be your green screen. Yes, now.
Speaker 3:For whatever reason, green screens tend to screw things up. I know.
Speaker 5:Turn that off Working.
Speaker 1:All right, yeah, we can hear you. You're just choppy. You're good right now. Go for it. Yeah, people are in the comments. Yeah, you're glitching brother. You piece of shit. Get rid of that freaking green screen.
Speaker 3:How many screens do you have open?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know why the he said he's going to come back in five, so um.
Speaker 3:Hey, I would tell you this, eric, like just for the, for the people in the audience um, probably judo, which I. I really liked it it's. I've gone on from that program to other other ones now but they broke people down into three people. Remember, it was nice, difficult and wimps. And nice people are the people who did what you asked the first time. You asked with no questions, because you were the police and they had respect for the police, they trusted the police and so they recognized your authority, the job you had to do. You asked them to do something. They did. Those are nice people.
Speaker 3:Difficult people are the people who ask why, why do I need to do that? Why, why, why, why? And then wimps were the ones who did what you said but then turned around and complained about you and made stuff up after the fact. It simply didn't reflect the reality. But when we say difficult people, uh, I love, I love the the comment, because when you say difficult people, that's us, they're talking about us, we, we are just as much those difficult people that move to this profession. So we're not going to do what people tell us to do simply because they tell us to do it. We're typically going to be the why, the why, guys. But we also can hear. Let me get right back to you.
Speaker 3:So I love that match energy with energy, match respect with respect. Um, and it's a smaller respect, not a bigger respect. I don't know you well enough to know if I respect you. You might be making a whole bunch of life choices that I absolutely don't respect. A small R respect allows me to treat you the way I would want to be treated under similar circumstances. So if you come up and ask me a question and I legitimately can't really answer it in that moment, the empathy and the respect is to just take the fifth or five seconds to explain that and circle back, like I talked about earlier. But I love that match energy with energy because if they're not being an auditor and they're not trying to escalate you intentionally, then that's exactly right. They'll respect the time you took with them, even if it might not have been as much as they wanted and to officers out there listening.
Speaker 1:So the education for what we try to do on this program is both ways, and it primarily it didn't start out this way, guys but primarily most of the education we try to put out is towards cops. So get pissed off all you want. It seems like cops need more training than civilians do. So as much as I thought I was going to come on here and educate civilians on the way that police do things, this show has evolved and shown me that I need to help show cops different perspectives. It's not that I'm going to tell you how to do your job. I'm just going to show you different ways to think of things.
Speaker 1:So in this, something to consider is one the secret squirrel stuff, and this is what I talk about a lot on here. There's things you can't divulge, and you know that there's. Sometimes you can't really say anything. But there are certain things you can say hey, I'm just, and this goes into emotional intelligence and stuff like that. Hey, I'm just, and this goes into emotional intelligence and stuff like that. Hey, I'm just, I'm a low hanging fruit on this department. I can't tell you anything but my supervisor's right over there. Do you want me to bring him over here and see if he can tell you anything, because I was just told to watch this spot and that's what I'm going to do, all right. All right, sir, I appreciate you telling, telling me that you're being honest, you're telling them what's up, and that is another way to look at this. So it's not you didn't, you didn't tell him anything, but you told him something. Versus it's none of your business, this is a police matter.
Speaker 3:Well, add to that, eric, when you do the empathy thing, what are they actually asking you? They want to know am I safe, is my family safe, is there anything for me to have to worry about? You can answer that very quickly. If it's a violent domestic across the street, you can say, hey, right now I'm not really sure you guys are safe, your family's safe. I think it's pretty isolated over there. Let me go figure out what's going on. Answer the question they're asking, even if they don't know. That's what they're asking. Yeah, yeah that's that.
Speaker 1:That's exactly right banning. Are you back, buddy? I?
Speaker 2:don't know, can you hear me?
Speaker 1:yeah, you sound good, you sound smooth, I like it. So you're moving, you're not glitching, so that's a plus. So you are just for uh, mr bill folds, uh, satisfaction. You are you, you're not alan doing an ai thing right now, right, no, yeah would you and mr bill Would?
Speaker 1:you guys have a safe word. I'm looking at the comments. Patrick true love said exactly Like I said earlier, people don't get taught how to think. They get taught what to think Starting very early ages. A country girl said, like Eric said, hire prior bartenders. We have great skills dealing with personality types. Yeah, one of the things that I've pushed out here is give me a Starbucks barista, give me a bartender in a big city you know, not even a big city Any. Just give me somebody that deals in retail. That is going to make a better cop than the dude that knew he was going to be a cop. His whole life was a Boy Scout, then went into college, gets his four-year degree in criminal justice and then jumps into the police department. That guy is not going to be as good of a cop as a Starbucks barista, as a bartender or as a retail person.
Speaker 4:Give me the girl who works Sephora on Black Friday. I want her Right yeah.
Speaker 1:She knows stress, she knows how to deal with people. Yep that.
Speaker 3:I think you look at the generational thing too, like I wish everybody would remember, including on our own departments, that one-year cop isn't going to be as good as the five-year cop, as good as the 10-year cop, and they are where they're at, in the snapshot of their career and at their age level and their experience level. And so I think that's the thing, like when you talk about community versus the police perspective on this problem. When you're supervising, you're training, mentoring, coaching that person, you see it very differently. You're seeing a one-year like I can't imagine that girl had been on very long at all. Probably I wouldn't be surprised if she hadn't been off probation very long, right, you broke Vaughn, mr Millville, you broke him right there, I saw it.
Speaker 1:My new safe word is for science.
Speaker 3:Because, because, because he knows that's not the safe word. That's what. That's what threw me.
Speaker 1:I was like that's not safe oh my god, our audience is out of control and I love it. Shotguns and tattoos. I don't know if I said hi tonight, uh, saying hi to everybody going through. Oh, andy fletcher's on. Andy fletcher gives a shit, just like mr billfold gives a shit. We have jared. You're not used to this, but we do have some very good uh members that I. I don't want to come out and say they're anti-cop, they just are hold authority to the fire type people and andy yeah, yeah, andy Fletcher is one of them, mr Billfold's another one, and they ask really hard questions to ask.
Speaker 1:They're very open to hearing what we have to say and stuff like that. So I just want to prepare you for some of our guys that are they're really, they're really good and have really changed the way that I police. It's kind of fun, uh, banning I. I don't know if it's been the same for you, because we've been at this for a while, but the way our audience has interacted with us has changed the way I policed, um, in a good way this is this, this platform I wish we had, and not for our own, whatever.
Speaker 2:I just wish more people had access and they could watch. I mean, we put our pants on the same way everybody else does, and this is an amazing platform. All these people that are coming on here. I absolutely love the comments that are coming out of this. I think it would make every cop better.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, brandon 86,. Do cops not understand that they can cause panic when they gather in bunches and then tell public nothing? Suspicion in the public I per se, and I agree, and I think that's kind of the point that this guy was making in the video is that hey, I got four fucking cop cars in my apartment complex and you're telling me it's not my concern. That's not a normal response. Two cars, maybe we don't see four piled up? Tell me something, am I at least safe?
Speaker 3:I defend this girl a little bit too. I hate to defend her. Well, I'll defend her because, again, I think she's new. But there is a difference. I think we all agree. If somebody comes up and says, hey, what's going on? But when you started, what's your name, what's your badge, and I'm going to have a phone in your face, tell me what's going on.
Speaker 3:What they're doing is taking control of that scene from the officer. They're intentionally trying to take control and what cops know, and what I think a lot of people understand, is that people are safer when police maintain unquestioned command at the scene of investigations. That's a Supreme Court quote and it ruffles you, even as a citizen. I'm like. I don't like the idea of unquestioned command. We're built on questions, right. But when someone comes up with the camera demanding my name, my badge, number, who my supervisor, and demanding me to explain in that moment what I'm doing, we can't pretend that the guy wasn't trying to antagonize. We just can agree she didn't handle the antagonism very well. But I do think that there are plenty of people who have come up and asked us that who didn't have a camera in their hand or seem legitimately concerned about what was going on. I don't think he was one of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mr Belford said amen, jared, we will defend you guys from trolls, not as bootlickers, but because you guys take our message to your fellow officers. You police your own, we police our community chat here, and that's very true. Um, we've, we've earned that type of respect from our guys. Love it, sigma Lord, another one that has definitely put our feet to the fire. Do not have to follow illegal or unethical orders. Very true.
Speaker 3:Let me just talk to that for a second. Here's the challenge with that. That's absolutely true. I don't know about unethical. The whole concept of unethical is who decides what's ethical or not? That's a priority of human interests, right? Who decides what's ethical in that moment?
Speaker 3:The problem is how frequently police officers are challenged for something that they have every right to do legally, but the community member has no idea that they have a legal right to do it. So I've always said that the hardest people to control are innocent people, because if I legally stop you for an investigation, I have reasonable suspicion to believe you've committed an offense and you didn't commit the offense. You have the benefit of knowing you're innocent. I don't know that yet, and yet I still have all the legal rights to stop you, detain you for a reasonable period of time to confirm or alleviate my suspicions. Oftentimes we pull people over and we give orders that citizens have no idea they're required to obey. And so if they tell themselves, I don't have to obey illegal orders, but they don't know what a legal versus illegal order is, that's a problem, that's a challenge. That's a problem. That's a challenge, that's a tension point. And so when I do some of these community groups.
Speaker 3:I did this the one I was telling you about before we started today up in seattle, I gave everybody a non-quiz quiz, because people get nervous with quizzes. So I gave them a non-quiz quiz and I just basically asked them and it was attorneys, it was judges, it was probation officers, it was cops, it was attorneys, it was judges, it was probation officers, it was cops, it was victim advocates and it was basically just sort of like Terry stops stuff what's the standard for when police can stop you and legally detain you? And they failed it miserably. The judge failed it miserably. The attorneys failed it miserably. They had no idea what cops can do and when they can do it. So that's where we have to have that public education side.
Speaker 3:It's sort of like for a long time and your individual cities might be different, but where I was from, you never had a legal right to ask me for my name and my badge number and my supervisor, and you certainly had no right to disobey lawful police orders. Until I provided a supervisor, the order coming from me was sufficient. Now we start to see people challenging the police, saying you got to get your supervisor here, so I need you to step out of the car and like well, I need your name and badge number, I need your supervisor, and they imagine that they have that right as a citizen to disobey orders or decide when they're going to obey orders until they get the information they want. So they can be arrested for that. Now, how many citizens know, in many, many jurisdictions you can be arrested if you don't immediately comply with a lawful order, and it's up to you to know what a lawful order is. And so that's the tension point of the challenge with that.
Speaker 3:I wanted to kind of touch on that because it comes up an awful lot. Now. The mature police officer is going to recognize when you're in that situation and you're going to be like okay, right now, let me explain to you. I'm giving you a lawful order and I think you know that you're asking me for information. I'm going to love to give that to you, but I can't do that right now. I'm going to give you some instructions and they're important, and then you give them the instructions. So there's days, there's different ways to manage those interactions, but that's just kind of.
Speaker 3:I wanted to address that when I saw that comment, because that does come up a lot. Our favorite is in your head. And I'll end on this like we would train cops do not react when people become the wipers or they. They start demanding your name and badge number or your supervisor and they refuse to obey your lawful orders until they get certain answers.
Speaker 3:I said I want you to name that person in your head and then have a response to that person, not a reaction. So if you name it, you can respond. If you don't name it and you allow yourself to react to it, then the first words that come out of your mouth are not going to be the best words. So anticipate it. When you see it, name it in your head and then respond professionally to it. So we would call those the second year law student. Because every second year law student you know they come out of law school their second year. They know all the law better than you do because they took criminal law, criminal procedure. What they don't realize is they don't know any of the law like a cop knows it, who's operationalized that law every day. And so in your head we look out at the second year law student. But once you do that and you can empathize with them, you can go from there, you can diffuse it, so I'll stop there. It was an interesting comment.
Speaker 1:Patrick True Love said just because you have a camera in your hand doesn't mean you're there to antagonize Vaughn and I'm not going to speak for Vaughn, but I don't think that was what was being conveyed. But Freeman Keys followed up Vaughn. That phrase phone in my face bothers me Very seldom is it in their face? It's usually five to 10 feet away. Also bothers me very seldom is there. Is it in their face? It's usually five to ten feet away also. Thank you for answering my initial question.
Speaker 4:Brilliant answers love this channel yeah, and freeman's absolutely right. Most of the time it you know if somebody's just holding it against their chest, feeling I got no problem with you film all day. I got a camera on my chest too, you know. But it is when you know they have the phone like this and they're, you know it. Sometimes it does get in your face and it's an annoyance and it's a distraction yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Uh, shotguns and tattoos. Thanks, tcod. I now lovingly refer to my bro-in-law as deputy fuckface. I'm glad I could help out. That's what I do. Um, I may not have the intelligence of vaughn and the style that Jared has up here, but you know what I can bring fuckface to the table for anybody. Brandar 86.
Speaker 3:Brandon's give an example of that, brandar, because that's probably we'll probably all agree on the answer. So let's figure out what is it.
Speaker 1:Okay, let me read it out, because we do end up playing these later on in our podcast, which is just audio. So Brandar86 said what about the cases where there are cops that think they have a legal right to do something but the public knows they are wrong? That is a fucking great question. So, Vaughn, you want to tackle that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'll give you a good example of it. Well, if he wants to give us an example, I have one. That does happen, but I want to know what his is, and then we can go off there, okay.
Speaker 1:Sounds good.
Speaker 3:If he doesn't, I'll have one.
Speaker 1:Okay, sounds good. Also, mr Billfold, there is a case that I have the video actually already pulled up. Let me find it All right, here it is. So I'm going to pull this video up. Brandr86, I want you to find that case. I did want to pull this one up.
Speaker 1:I have covered this before on the podcast, maybe on a reel or a short, but there's been a follow-up with this one, so I kind of want to talk about this one and discuss it. Let me share the screen here. Okay, so I have covered in length. Let's biggysize this one. I've covered in length about cops getting the finger given to them Right there.
Speaker 1:You as an officer cannot be offended. Now, you can be personally offended. You can be like oh, that offends me, but you as a cop cannot act on that offense. You need somebody else to be offended by the gesture or their language. That depends on your state as well. Some states don't have it, others do, but the Supreme Court has upheld that. You as a police officer and I don't have the court case in front of me, but I've posted before. It begins with a G Grizzel, grizzel, grizzel, something like that. I can't remember what it is, but the count as any of that shit if all they simply did was give you the finger when they drove by. So with that in mind, let's watch, uh, this oh hold on before we get too far.
Speaker 1:I want to give credit to whoever the hell this guy is. Let me un-biggy size it real quick the civil rights lawyer on YouTube, so I'm going to give credit to him. This is his video that we're using right now 873,000 subscribers. Make sure you guys give him credit for this, like, subscribe, do all the things. Thank you, uh, civil rights lawyer, for this video. Um, okay, let me re-biggie size this and play certain hand signal that you got to give away.
Speaker 5:Is that why you yes? Driver's license. Registration for insurance beautiful.
Speaker 1:You just fucking owned this cop because he said is that why you pulled me over? And you said yes, you're a fucking idiot.
Speaker 4:I don't understand. Like nothing brings me more joy than when I see a gangbanger on his bicycle flip me off, and then I get on my PA and say love you too, babe. Like I don't understand why you get so offended.
Speaker 1:Like it makes me laugh every time it happens. Have fun with it. Yeah, yeah, that's. It makes me laugh every time it happens. Have fun with it. Yeah, yeah, yes. David Edmondson, un-biggie size that's what I do when I smallie size it. These guys love when I say biggie size, for some reason. I grew up when McDonald's was very controversial. They started biggie sizing things.
Speaker 4:When you get the full-size candy bars at Halloween, are those the biggie size?
Speaker 1:Those are the biggie size. Yes, yes, that's a biggie size candy bar, absolutely so now that we know that this guy was, uh, I'm going. The point is is not why they pulled this guy, it is why they pulled this guy over.
Speaker 5:I want to get into the the follow-up of what happened with this improper hand display if I have to say it one more time, to provide me with the documents I'm going to place you under arrest.
Speaker 1:I want to point out that one officer was talking the contact officer and then this guy come over and says if I have to say it one more time, bitch, you didn't say anything Ever. You didn't have any contact with the driver. Did anybody else notice that? I'm like what are you talking about? You didn't say shit, so let's keep going. Okay, so now that you guys have seen that, um, we don't need to get into the entirety of the video. I want to get into the follow-up and this is my point and and this was mr billfold's point things that we don't think about as cops. This guy ends up getting arrested, okay, so he goes to jail for essentially giving the finger contempt of cop yeah, pissed off police, pissed off police.
Speaker 1:He goes to jail. Now, what I like to push out there is like, bro, you got it made, you just won an easy lawsuit. And one of the things that I don't consider and don't think about and this is what Mr Belfold pointed out is this guy lost his job. It was a two year process. He didn't get that money right away. He had to figure out his fucking life for those next two years.
Speaker 1:So you cops out there when you're thinking, like I was thinking and this is how we get outside of ourselves and this is one of the benefits of this show is we get to hear outside perspectives, and this is why you shouldn't ban people from your page just because they're not an echo chamber and they're not saying what you like to hear. I never thought about it that this guy got fired from his job. Now he's on the struggle bus for the next two. Maybe he loved his job, even if he wins a shitload of money. Maybe he wanted to keep doing it, who knows? But now he just lost his job because you, as the police officer, got contempt of cop, as jared pointed out, and tried to make up some bullshit. Uh, for what is this guy out there robbing? This is one of my frustrations with cops, and when I see this shit I get so fucking mad Like you just fucked. Oh, you got to understand the power we have as police officers. You have the right to take somebody's freedom away. What is the one thing that we uphold in this country? Above all? That everybody comes in for freedom and we have the right to take it away. That is an awesome power, and if you're not taking it serious, you have no business in this profession. And that is the point of this video. That is what I see when I hear about the follow-up.
Speaker 1:And this guy lost his job. He had a two-year process. Now I'm sure he's going to win a boatload of money. That's beside the point. The point is we just caused all of that to go on. I think Banning's finally trying to get back in. We just caused all of that to go on. I think Banning's finally trying to get back in. We just caused all of that to continue to happen. And what if he doesn't win? I'm sure he will, by the way, but what if he doesn't win? Like what do you got Jared?
Speaker 4:I mean I feel sorry for the guy, like yeah, he was a dick, but he didn't deserve to go to a jail for contempt of cop. Like I said, if somebody flips me off, who cares? It doesn't ruin my day, it just makes me laugh. So I don't understand why people get so upset about it. Even like road rage incidents, people get shot for flipping other people off with road rage.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, steve Wallace said freedom of speech doesn't protect against fighting words or exciting the public. Um true, uh, but Supreme court has ruled flipping off a cop in traffic is freedom of speech and is not exciting. The public's not doing anything. Now, if you're like, I'm gonna blow up everybody in the road, that's a little different. So, vaughn, what do you got buddy yeah, that one.
Speaker 3:it hurts my heart. Yeah, none of that looked good. I don't like any of it. The uh, there was one time I was riding with a cop and two things and this is going to sound so sad to you guys these things broke my heart, I felt them. One of my FTOs crumpled up a piece of paper and threw it out the window of the patrol car Something really simple and I was like it crushed my idea of what I thought cops were early, simple, and I was like it crushed my idea of what I thought cops were right early. The second one was some guy flipped us off and my partner looked at him and flipped him off back and I was like what are you?
Speaker 3:doing like we're the police. We don't do that like sort of thing. So not only do we not arrest people for it, you remain professional when that stuff happens that that's such a non-issue to me. I can't believe people are actually still arresting people for the international distress signs.
Speaker 1:For telling them they're number one. I want to go back, they're number one yeah, there's.
Speaker 3:No, I'd like to say it's silly, but there's nothing silly about that. Back to that other question, though, about the, because you don't know what's going to happen to them in jail either. I worked in jails long enough to know you go put somebody in jail for a couple of nights on some nonsense. They come out with stab wounds, they come out beat up, they come out life altered, I don't care who they are. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of badness.
Speaker 3:So back to the other thing what do you do when a citizen says a citizen knows what the cop's doing is illegal? What do you do? So I have two hats for that. Um, yeah, that's nonsense. The uh. The first one is as a legal advisor. If my client calls me on a cell phone and he's like, hey, uh, this is what's happening out here, I don't have to do that, right, I go. No, you don't.
Speaker 3:But you also don't get to resist arrest, you also get to fight. There's no exception for battery on a law enforcement officer because they were violating your constitutional right, unless you live in a jurisdiction where they are using excessive force and you're defending yourself against excessive force. But you better be right, because a lot of people believe what force cops are using is excessive and it ends up being perfectly reasonable and justified. But there are jurisdictions that say you can defend yourself against excessive force. But the other thing is, as a cop, as a supervisor, we went on a knock and talk, right. So what a knock and talk is for those who don't know, you just knock on a door because maybe somebody said I think these guys are selling dope. But you set up, you do surveillance on the house. You don't want to see anything indicative of drug sales, and so one of the last things you do is just go knock on a door, introduce yourself and and try to you know, either confirm or alleviate suspicions. That way it's just a knock and talk, purely consensual. And they're like sure, come on into the house.
Speaker 3:So you go on into the house that happens quite a bit and there's a guy sitting on the couch and he's staring at the TV. He refuses to look at it, so it's the no, look right. When someone refuses to look at you, it's something you should pay attention to. So you're sitting there and he's just staring at the TV. Now two cops walk into your living room. You that you should notice that it's not illegal, um, but it's off. It's an anomaly off the baseline. Well, he has a fanny pack on and we're all pretty sure there's a gun. So when the cops pull you over and legally detain you, if they have reasonable suspicion to believe you're presently armed and dangerous, they can pat you down for weapons.
Speaker 3:Um, so my partner that day sees this guy. He's like uh, what's in your fanny pack? The guy won't answer me. Go, stand up, get your hands on the wall, I'm gonna pat you down. Now every cop who's listening to this should realize this is a knock and talk. This is purely consensual. You don't get to pat people down during a knock and talk or during a consensual contact. You can ask permission, but if they're like but this guy said nothing, he just kept staring. So the guy says stands up, put your hands, I want to pat you down.
Speaker 3:My job in that moment like talk about duty to intervene before it was cool was hey, hey, come here for a second. I'm sorry, just hang, I have a seat there for a second. I told my partner you know what, let's, why don't we go and take you guys? Thanks very much. And we left. I got him out of there. We left and then I explained to him like what are you doing, man? You don't just get to pat people down in their own houses during a knock and talk. This isn't a domestic. We have a legal right to be here. We have a legal right to be there, but we don't have a legal right to be there over their objection. So that was it. As a cop, you have to intervene when you recognize that the citizen has to be the one to force their own violation. So that was one, but it gets a little less innocuous, a little more innocuous. I had the benefit of being a police legal advisor and a prosecutor, but I kept coming back and working as a cop at the same time. So I would do both.
Speaker 3:So we get into, evolved in a and I'm stabbing and we're people took off running. I'm dealing with the, the gunshot victim, um, and literally it's like out of a movie, dragging her behind the car, ducking down while shots are fired. They all run into a house. Fast forward. We got medical there. We got to now start executing search warrants. We got to figure out what's going on, where the shooters went.
Speaker 3:Detectives show up and they say all right, let's get all these witnesses and take them down to the station for questioning. Now again, the cops should all recognize you don't get to just take people down to the station for questioning I don't care what they did on TV, right? You can't forcibly remove somebody from the scene without their permission unless they're under arrest, right? And so there's very, very few exceptions. I won't even get into what the exceptions are because they're so rare. But for the lawyers in the room, yeah, I got it, there are some exceptions. But I just looked at the detective and I said do you mean you want us to ask them? You want us to see if they're willing to come down to the station for questioning? And he's like, looks at me. I was like we can't literally force them to come down, which was his intent. That's exactly what he wanted us to do is get them in the back of the car to the station. So again, it's recognizing it on behalf of the citizen and going let's intervene, let's fix this, so the citizen doesn't have to, right? So those are the things I would tell you.
Speaker 3:Don't fight the police, even if you're right. Obviously, defend yourself against clearly excessive use of force. I think we all would, you know and uh, but how? What do you do when what they're doing is illegal? As a legal advisor, I would say you have to ride it out. Ride it out, even like in this case. If that guy would have called me and said hey, I flipped them off, I would say look, man, I can try to get there to the scene and help you out.
Speaker 1:Sometimes attorneys will do that they might not like it if I show up, but if I can't get there to help you out, you're going to have to take the ride and then you'll see the action. Yeah, I tell everybody kiss the cops with kindness, make your objection known, let them know. Hopefully you're recording and if not, ask the officer. Can I start recording on my phone? I want to use my phone to record. Is that okay? Because let a cop tell you no, let a cop tell you no. He might ask where's your phone at and you'd be like it's right here. I got it, it's in my pocket, all right. But when I pull people over, I encourage them to start recording. Hey, real quick, I'm going to be recording. I want to make this opportunity for you to start recording as well, for you to start recording as well. And, oh my God, does that diffuse things right away?
Speaker 1:And say okay, sergeant Levine, the reason I pulled you over is this Is there any reason why you were doing that? If I pulled you over, you were probably doing something pretty egregious anyway, because I don't do traffic, but I want to get to the what do you think, eric, about the situation?
Speaker 3:Because this was when we were doing a lot of gang investigations, working street-level gangs and drugs. The police are allowed to maintain status quo, right, you're allowed to freeze the scene. That means they don't get to get on their phone and start calling people to join them, because back in the day, at least while I was rolling around, they would call for people to come shoot at us, to distract us, to rob. So our thing was no, leave it where it's at. You don't get to touch your phone. You don't get to start recording and make phone calls. Understanding, it's not a legal record. The problem is we don't know if they're recording or if they're saying.
Speaker 3:For example, I got a real world case I dealt with where the dude got pulled over, had all the dope had got pulled over, had all the dope, had all the guns, because he had just shot at us. And then he loaded up his car and was trying to move the stuff because he thought the house was hot. Right, he thought he'd shot at us at the house. Everything kind of slowed down. He thought the house was hot. So he went back, loaded everything up and was transplanted.
Speaker 3:He got pulled over again, as luck would have it, and he's on that phone calling in backup, just like we would call him back up. He's calling in all the backup because it was that important to him to protect that stash. So that's a tension point because, on the one hand, an innocent person is just going to want to film for their own protection, but we have enough what we call tactical SOPs, suspects, criminal tactical SOPs that involve the phone. They start deleting text or they start calling people to come back. So there's a challenge, right? There's a tension point between, you know, operation security, tactical security and criminal operating procedures and then innocent people just trying to document, right, and I think that all comes down to what is your function.
Speaker 1:If I'm just in patrol and I'm making regular patrol stops, I don't really think I have the argument to make like other than hey, you know, let me make sure that I want you to record. If you want to record, Is that what you want to do? Okay, cool, Let me see you turn that on and start recording. And then please just don't mess with your phone once you start recording. I mean, that goes into communication and again it goes into emotional intelligence, Like I want to think that I can tell. I can't always tell, but I would like to think that I can. And that goes into you as the officer. I'm going to let each officer determine that on their own. I can't speak for you.
Speaker 3:Well, the other lesson, the less serious one, is when they call their parents and their parents or brothers would show up at the car stop. And now you're dealing with an irate parent of a 22-year-old should charge dumb cops like this.
Speaker 1:They should stop it from happening in the long term. And I, in this particular case, I fired and I don't necessarily agree with charged. I don't know. I don't know enough. I got to know more about the case. Now to what Mr Billfold wanted to point out was this guy did four days in jail. Now to what Mr Billfold wanted to point out was this guy did four days in jail. We just took this guy's freedom for four days, so that's something that in itself, if that's all that this case holds on, is that they gave a middle finger and this guy got four days in jail. You deserve to be fired. Fuck you. Fuck you Right away.
Speaker 3:I think you got to go to the other thing too. Some of these cops don't know any better either.
Speaker 3:So when you look at a criminal charge versus a civil charge, civil is typically where you go get their money because that's easy. Go take their money for a clear violation like that. If you go criminal, depending on the state you start looking at was it malevolent? Did he actually know what he was doing was wrong and did it anyway? When I see something like that, I got to believe these two guys who are doing it on body camera in front of other people in public daylight have no idea that they can't do that. They believe 100% they can do that legally. So do we criminally charge people who don't realize they're breaking the law without notice? Now that's not an excuse and if there's a criminal charge, they're usually. The criminal charge for cops is that you have to show there was a level of intentionality.
Speaker 4:They knew what they were doing was wrong.
Speaker 3:They did it anyway with a level of malevolence, and your own statute will tell you what that standard is Because, granted, in my line of work we see bad policing all the time.
Speaker 1:We do.
Speaker 3:We see good policing much more often, and so we have a pretty good, I think a pretty good balance. But I do draw that distinction Before I started seeing DOJ and criminal charges, if they knew what they were doing was wrong. You guys saw the Memphis case right. I don't think there was a cop in the world who thought you could do what they did in that case yeah right and I think the, I think the quick, the quick uh, the quick uh.
Speaker 1:Criminal justice response was evidence of that yeah, um, one of the other things that um came from this video is that the cops end up muting their video and then sitting back smoking a cigarette you know poking and joking. At the end, and Constitutional Country Girl said I despise body cameras. Muting should not be allowed. I have had this conversation in length and I I'll put it out there and then, jared, I'll let you go on this one, uh, and then banning to see if his fucking oh shit, I'm kicking my camera. Um, we'll see if banning's connection will allow him to speak, but, um, I am, I am with her.
Speaker 1:I do not think there is any reason for a patrol officer to be muting their camera. I think everything. After the fact, if something needs to be redacted on a Freedom of Information Act, so be it. Figure it out. But I am not a fan of muting period. I don't. I do not unless it's like a tactical unit like SWAT that is very rarely used but has their own things and most of that information is going to be redacted anyway. Okay, give them that ability, but not a patrol officer Like and that's the meat and potatoes of what we got going on. I am not a fan of muting cameras. So, jared, what do you say?
Speaker 4:yeah, I mean it could go either way. I I do mute my camera um, but it's never at a time when it's um of an evident, evidentiary value. So I'll mute it for two reasons, you know. One is when the officers get to what we call the huddle, we all come together say what do you got? What do you got, what do you got? And we kind of decipher. We'll all mute then, and then we break and we go back to handling the call for service.
Speaker 1:We're unmuted again okay, hold on, hold on, go ahead. I I'm just want to give you my perspective on on that mentality. Wouldn't it be evidentiary, beneficial to anybody that has to look at, if something came of that case, what all of you guys had?
Speaker 1:hey, this officer has this, this person has this, and this is how we came to the conclusion we came to. I feel like that would be of evidentiary like value to that, and I think we have a culture in policing that we're not necessarily conscious of that. We were kind of told oh, we should mute right here because we're talking about the case, and and so that's just how I'm kind of looking at that.
Speaker 4:No, no, that completely makes sense. Let me backtrack. So when I say coming together as the huddle, most of the time it's when we have an OIT officer in training, so they're going to come to us and start telling us what they have and we're coaching them back. I don't necessarily want that coaching to go to court, I don't want him court-knowing and pre-setting him up to where he didn't know what he was doing. So that's what I say when I say the huddle. The other reason I do mute is if we are on a shit show of a scene, I will check on my officer. I'll ground by the soldier, shoulder mute and say you good, you need anything. No, unmute, okay, okay, fair. Those are the two types, fair.
Speaker 1:So it has happened what do you got banning?
Speaker 2:are you able to hear me? That's the first test I can't hear you I don't know what's up.
Speaker 2:Slightly delayed, anyway. So here's my thing on that, and I'm not going to go into the manufacturers out there body cameras. But running a patrol division, I had the ability for the officers to mute, for the deputies to mute, okay, so they would go, hit that button, but I would also communicate with them. Here's an email no longer commute if you're on a scene, and that went away. But I differ from most.
Speaker 2:I've never muted a body camera. I've never had a reason to mute it. Most I've never muted a body camera. I've never had a reason to mute it. And I've been that guy that's left a call and started another deal for my camera to go to something else and maybe we stopped at a, at a restroom and you've had to request delete. So I mean, you can do that when it's you know what I'm saying. You can, you can get rid of stuff like that. Once somebody in internal affairs or professional standards looks at it, you can get that to go away. But to me personally, the entirety of the call I believe should be on there. I've never muted it. In 21 years Okay, let's say probably 18 years with body camera, I've never had a reason to mute it. Yeah, 18 years with body camera. I've never had a reason to mute it.
Speaker 1:It just and it's never, yeah, and it also depends on your department policy too. Yeah, banning keeps glitching through. You're good Banning, it's all right, go ahead. Uh, jared, what'd'd you have?
Speaker 4:it all depends upon your department policy too. You know, some departments don't allow it all.
Speaker 1:Some don't have a policy on it right, yeah, um, let me see here, uh, cajun mfn. I don't know what that means. I'm not gonna guess either because I'll probably be way off what? What are your thoughts on disarming a concealed carrier on a traffic stop? I saw a video the other day. A female officer was taking a guy's gun off of him and shot him in his leg with his own gun. I'm so glad you brought that up because I actually went on the Coley and Noir show podcast and we discussed that in length Colleen Noir show podcast and we discussed that in length. I've also discussed it on the podcast. In my opinion, being a cop in Texas, everybody's armed. If we spent our time disarming everybody that's armed on a regular old traffic stop because the guy was stopped for running a red light, holy shit, our day would be tied up. There'd be four traffic stops a day because we're pulling everybody out of their cars. We're disarming them Like no.
Speaker 1:It's the Second Amendment, right If we're just pulling them over and all we have is a basic traffic violation?
Speaker 1:no we should not be disarming people. You're actually at a more advantageous position if you know they're armed. You know where they're armed and they're sitting down in their car. Why are you pulling them out? That's just my opinion. Let me Mr Bill Foley's like hey, bitch, we already covered that shit. Quit asking old shit. Let me see here.
Speaker 1:Brandar 686 said why hide their state of mind in the situation? You would document the crap out of a civilian to use their mental state against them. Should go both ways. It sucks to be in the situation. I don't necessarily think it's um.
Speaker 1:Let me say this I agree. That's why I'm saying like I don't want to mute. I want you to get everything. I want you to understand how we came to the conclusion we came to, even if they're shitty, even if I have a rookie, and in Jared's case, like again, it goes into the culture of how you guys police. It's not right or wrong. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying where my mindset is on.
Speaker 1:Not muting is. I want you to hear how ridiculous a rookie sounds and be like hey, this is why it's not that I want to train you and help you understand, and then you can. You'll have a history, a record. This is something that we're still in the infancy guys. Body cameras are in their infancy. It is improving policing every single day. So one of the things that policing culture needs to get behind is understanding that you can learn where you were at as a rookie, because there's some cops now that all they've ever known is having a body cam and then see where they became a cop in five years versus where they became a cop in 10 years versus where they became a cop in 10 years because they had that body cam and they've got that record where they can see how they thought and how they process the crime scene or a call and then jumped ahead.
Speaker 4:So, as dumb as it sounds, you know, I tell the rookie officers narrate. While you're, you know, walking up to a car, you're like, hey, I have a heady over a marijuana emitting from this car. It sounds stupid. When you're walking up to a car, you're like, hey, I have a heady over of marijuana emitting from this car.
Speaker 1:It sounds stupid when you're doing it, but when you go back for court it changes things. I consider myself the Morgan Freeman of my calls. It's really how I. You think I'm joking? I literally do. And I'll even get on my camera and be like all right, I'm going to Morgan Freeman, my body cam, I'll say that out loud and I'll watch my rookies look at me like did you just say that?
Speaker 3:And I'm like, yeah, and then there's an interesting perspective that comes up on that question about recording or not. Politicians that are at work all the time making phone calls on behalf of the community do not wear body cameras and do not record their phone calls. Calls on behalf of the community do not wear body cameras and do not record their phone calls. They, they are on duty, talking government business, and they do not record those phone calls for us to listen to at upon demand. When, when attorneys and business leaders are communicating by email or phones and people do. Freedom of information act. One of the ways you can prevent the public from seeing those discussions if it's pre-decisional, if it is just conversation, as they're bouncing ideas off each other what do you like this, do you like that? Bad ideas, good ideas, and it's pre-decisional, and so there's not a. They say, there's not a public interest in it, and so they. You can withhold it. And I've always thought about this Cops. We have a case where cops kept their body cameras on and they had every discussion. Well, we already know what happens to that. The opposing counsel will get it and turn every, every sentence, every word, and they will cross-examine every sentence, every word, when the officer wasn officer, wasn't being, wasn't framing his, his ideas in a way that was going to be for court, right. So he's maybe inarticulate, he's maybe not precise, he's maybe and we see this every time, and so I'll give you the idea what's happening in a, in a case we're on, where they do not mute their camera, is the cover officers start doing pre-contact planning. So you got a contact officer. The cover officers are now planning hey, we've got a shotgun, do we got this? Let's get beanbag rounds, let's get this, let's get that. Call the supervisor, get medical standby, blah, blah. And the attorneys got it and said all of those conversations were evidence of intent to kill. They were bringing weapons, they were intentionally planning, premeditated, to bring weapons to the scene. That cops are like are you kidding me? No, we don't necessarily going to use them, but we want to have the options. In fact, that's what we train cops to do. Every conversation that has had every idea, every expression of stress, is going to be interrogated and cross-examined by people who are not intending those conversations for cross-examination. And so it's challenging because the people, the right, yeah. So what ends up happening is they have a right to observe and record, just like we do politicians, just like you do any public servant, and yet only the cops are the ones required to do that. And it's by public servant, and yet only the cops are the ones required to do that. And it's also beyond human performance in the sense of I have to maintain optimal arousal states for persons of public display at every second of my job so that I can't have that stressful response. I can't be like you know.
Speaker 3:One case was like holy shit, what the fuck was that was going on there, right. And you talk to you like what do we got going? I don't know what the fuck was that was going on there, right. And you talk to you like what do you? What do we got going? I don't know what the fuck this guy's thinking.
Speaker 3:And you're trying to get that expression of emotional arousal out so you can go back and behave professionally, because you're doing it one-on-one outside of public, um, and so you have to strip out the humanity and make them robots so they can't have any emotion, they can't. They can't have any venting, they can't have any gallows humor, they can't have those honest human conversations anymore, because everything's being recorded and they are on camera and on audio all the time. So once a police officer in a police department recognizes that and one of the things some of like verbal defense and influence does a great job. Their entire class is recorded and so they got cameras up audio and even on the brakes, and then they play it back because people forget they're being recorded and you're hearing them smoking and joking and laughing and you guys you have to understand in this job you're always being recorded and everything you say will be screwed, and by prosecutors and opposing counsel who do not have your best interests at heart. Now I'm not saying that about all the public. I'm saying those opposing counsel, those opposing experts, the prosecutors. They will strip every word you say in an effort to make it no, it's not redacted.
Speaker 3:Because of your point is that they believe they have a right to the entire context because until they know what it is, a defense attorney or a prosecutor gets to determine whether it's going to have relevance to their theory of the case and they don't know if it has relevance until they hear it and they can manufacture the relevance and they do frequently in cases manufacture intent and motive behind things that cops were never even thinking about. So I'm not saying I have the answer. I'm saying these are the tension points, these are the conflicts we see once all of this information is exposed to scrutiny. So the agencies who learn this, what they do is their policy is, whenever their recording is on, they say nothing. They no longer now get to have those communications, they don't get to say what happened previously, they don't get to share information, they don't get to vent. So they have to hold all that inside, all that tension, especially during a critical incident. And some of them will have hand signals, some of them will just point to the camera, some of them will say you know 10-12, which in? Because the people who will get access to those conversations do not have your best interest at heart and are incentivized to interpret everything you say in the worst possible light. And I want to be clear that's not everybody who gets access to it.
Speaker 3:I'm saying, within the population of people who do get access to it, there's going to be a lot of people who are going to do their best to demonize those conversations in a way that can be criminal and civil liability, and we're seeing it now in criminal cases where a cop will listen to it and go no, that's not what that means. For example, a cop said hey, hey, chief, I'll go ahead and break the window for the paper. So what's that mean? I'll do it for the paper. You tell your supervisor, I'll break the window for the paper. What does that mean? Right, I mean so I'll write the report. We don't have our chief reports, right? So hey, let me, I'll do the arrest for the paper.
Speaker 3:Well, they took it like I'm this. I'm this vicious guy who just wants to abuse people. Let me I. So I took it from the supervisor because they don't understand the culture to understand the terminology. And once it got put out there, it was interpreted in a way that was the least beneficial or the least generous to the officer. So that's what officers are thinking about when they hit mute. Is I need to express something? That probably is, is going to be inartful, it's going to be unprofessional, in a sense that it's. It's not intended for public release. And yet through that entire eight hour shift, everything is recorded. So my response to that has been great. We, if that's the standard, then every politician for an eight hour shift must have everything they say related to that job and unrelated to that job, as long as they're on duty recorded, and I want I want to see how many people are going to do that, because it is. It is a horrible way to have to go through your workday to not be able to have an honest, authentic, personal conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah I, I've actually. So those are. I've actually, um, been putting a couple elected officials to the fire, not putting their names or anything out there, but they've been pulled over by police and they instantly try using their position, um, as an influence over how that traffic stop should go. And I'm like, listen, you're an elected official, as you pointed out in the body cam video. You should be the higher standard, you should be the person that everybody looks to, and the way that you're acting right now you're trying to use your position to get you out of something. That's not how that goes. That's not how it should be.
Speaker 3:Well, there's an easy way to look at it too, and again, all I'm doing is identifying the tension. There's not a good, easy answer, because there's a desire to know and transparency. And then there's a desire to live authentically and to live in a way that all of us would like to live, which is not our constant guard. But we all have like three personas right First persona, second persona, third persona. Third persona is how we present ourselves to the public. Right Second persona is how you present. It's basically your best version of yourself. It's that avatar ideally.
Speaker 3:Your second persona is how you present to your friends and family. You may never cuss in your third persona. I hope people don't ever hear me cuss in my third persona, except maybe if I'm telling a story. I try not to. And so my third persona, especially if you there it is. I mean, look, if you hold yourself out as a Christian man and you hold yourself out as a representation of something bigger than yourself in your third, you don't want to be the weak leak in that representation. That's your third persona. You kind of keep it tight.
Speaker 3:Second personas with your friends and family. If they know a little bit more about you, they let you let it slip a little more. That's who you work with every day. That second persona crew is the cops you work with every day. It's the conversations you have that are a little less third person, a little less professional.
Speaker 3:And the first persona is the things you do when you're by yourself in the dark recesses of your of your mind, and that's what you even hide from your friends and family. So I think there's a little bit of that. I didn't really analyze it like that before, but I think that's part of the tension is having a camera on you at all times of recording everything during your duty day demands that you stay in third persona. That requires a high cognitive load. It is not natural, it is stressful, it is hard and if any of you in the audience, if you're a public speaker and you are a teacher or whatever, you know what it feels like to be on all day. You got to be on all day on day and you're exhausted at the end of the day because you couldn't relax and just be yourself. Um, that's what we're asking cops to do.
Speaker 4:I think with some of the yeah, yep for sure, remembering to turn on when you go to the bathroom. I mean turn off, yeah, yeah exactly, yeah, um banning.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you accidentally meant to take your video off or not. Um, I put you back up there no muting banning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no muting bitch. Okay. So, um, guys, the the primary point of the show was to watch body cams and kind of review them and give you a perspective from an officer's point of view as the call's developing, versus watching the video and then, monday morning, quarterbacking it. We don't do that here. We we watch it and we give you insight as how a cop would handle the call as it's developed. Yep, I can hear you, unfortunately. Are you able to hear me now? Yeah, yeah, you sound fine, buddy, are you good? He's obviously delayed because he's not answering right away.
Speaker 1:So, um, that's fine, all right, we're going to get into the first video of the night and let's see what happens. Uh, here we go. Share. Now I have seen this one. We are going to biggie. I've actually made a video like a reaction video to this, so I will stay out of this. Jared and Vaughn and Vaughn, obviously I know, because of the nature of what you do, you may or may not be able to even comment on this, but I want you guys to watch this and we'll kind of break it down as it goes. Well, now I'm nervous. I want you guys to watch this and we'll kind of break it down as it goes.
Speaker 1:Well no, I'm nervous. Shout out to policeactivitycom. That's where we got all these videos tonight is Police Activity's YouTube channel. Thank you, police Activity. Make sure you guys like subscribe and follow them, because we basically get all the raw body cam footage from them exclusively and we've never talked to them. So let's keep going hey, y'all, this, y'all, huh, this plate don't match man, hold on, hold on. Where you going? Hold on, hold on. Okay. So I'm going to lead off with Police 101.
Speaker 1:Never show all your cards. So when you tell this guy hey, is this your car? Are you driving this? The plates don't match, it doesn't come back. You just kind of gave all your cards up and guess what's going to happen. If somebody is guilty of something, they're going to rabbit and you just kind of fucked what you got going on because can you put this person in this car? And if the answer is no, you're fucked, you got Jack, shit. So other than that, uh, jared, you run this car. Let's just say, because we don't know the backstory, you just happen to be at the gas station. You're like I'm going to fill up some gas and you're like you know what? I'm going to be a nosy Nancy here and I'm going to run this plate while I'm about to get gas. So what do you got from here?
Speaker 4:I mean, I assume he's in a full uniform, that he's identifiable as a cop. While you're approaching this guy, um, but at the same time it looks like he's alone. If I have a car with a fraudulent plate, I want my friends there, um, that's for starters, just for me. You know, maybe he's from a, you know, a rural area and he doesn't have friends, so he's by himself.
Speaker 4:But the whole the whole approaching and everything like that off the get-go. I didn't, I didn't like, just because it made me nervous. Like you said, all of his cars are right out there. You got nothing in your deck left right, yeah, I don't, I don't understand.
Speaker 1:So this guy starts to run Vaughn do you yeah, same thing.
Speaker 3:Everything is all tactics, like these tactical decisions. It's discretionary, meaning every time you make a decision, you're doing risk, benefits and trade-offs. So you've already identified I'm by myself, this guy a fraudulent tag or a tag that doesn't match a vehicle. It's reasonable to infer it might be. One of the things cops are trained to consider is that it might be a stolen vehicle. Right, and so that that elevates the thing, it's not just a traffic violation. So ideally, if it's a stolen vehicle, you're going to. If you suspect it's a stolen vehicle, you want to respond like it is, which means you're not doing it by yourself. However, the trade-off is if you don't initiate it and you allow him to get into it and drive off simply because you're by yourself, you're like I'm here by myself. Now you got a mobile vehicle that's possibly stolen. Now you're. Now you're in a pursuit, so the trade-off, the benefit, is you. You stop him and he's like, hey, what's going on? Sorry, it's a violation.
Speaker 3:Keep in mind that this is just a traffic. We're like 100 times a day we stop people one-on-one for traffic violations. Right, illegal tag display or others In the back of your head. You're like, ah, this illegal tag display could be because it's stolen. So there's the tradeoff he's by himself. That's not good, but if he lets him get in the car now he's got a high. Now he has put for pursuit of a stolen vehicle, which is worse. So what do you do now? I do like you I I won't get into police tactics necessarily like what I would do to avoid showing all my cards, but there are things you can do to avoid showing all your cards, right, um, and I do like you say. We used to say this is like a starting pistol and you're like, from some distance go, hey, I think your car's stolen.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, it's the equivalent of rolling up hot with your lights and sirens on to a corner where you know that they actively deal dope and just going after the first person that runs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, wait till they're 30 feet away from me and said, hey, I think you got warrants.
Speaker 4:I hate to time this yeah.
Speaker 1:So right now I don't even know, legally speaking, do we have enough to go chasing after him?
Speaker 3:I'll answer that as how I would break it down. Anyway, here's what I want to know is somebody else in the other vehicle? So we only have one empty vehicle out there. We have two people leaving the store with their packages. The other car is pumping gas or whatever. We have one empty vehicle, is it?
Speaker 3:The only standard we're looking for is reasonable suspicion. Is a spec that this is the driver of that vehicle? If it is, he has enough for a terry stop. He can do a lawful detention long enough to confirm or alleviate his suspicion. So I would want to know that, because I do think if you see those two people coming out to the empty vehicle, um, and you see the other car, has somebody attached to it already, you at least have reasonable suspicion to stop them.
Speaker 3:Once they bolt depending on where you're at headlong flight away from the police constitutes additional reasonable suspicion. Once you give them a lawful order to stop and they refuse, now it's probable cause to believe they've disobeyed a lawful order. Now it's an arrestable offense. So you it can stack like that, keeping in mind there's some jurisdictions that you can't give lawful orders like that, which always baffled me, but there are some jurisdictions that you absolutely. If somebody disobeys a lawful order, it's not an arrestable offense, believe it or not. That's not where I worked If I told you to stop and I had a legal basis to stop you and you took off running. That's an arrest. That becomes an arrestable offense that becomes an arrestable offense.
Speaker 1:Well, let's just see. I know how this is going to play out, so we're just going to keep going from here.
Speaker 5:Hold on, I got one on my foot. I'm going to need to keep parking. Yo, stop running. I'm going to fucking tase you.
Speaker 1:Oh shit, I did not mean to do that. He says oh, oh shit, I did not mean to do that. He fired his gun, just so we're clear. Said he's gonna tase him, but says oh, oh shit, I did not mean to do that. Then fires his gun, so we'll keep going.
Speaker 5:Now he's fired I thought you said gun bro, gun yeah he says did you shoot at me?
Speaker 1:and then the officer says I thought you said gun, bro, help me make that make sense. Sounds like he's trying to cover for himself. When have you ever been chasing after a bad guy and he goes gun? It's never happened in the history of policing. It's never happened. I'm speculating, but I'm going to say that's never happened. It's happened in training, for sure, it's happened in police. Going to say that's never happened, so it's happened in training, for sure, it's happened in police training, but that's never happened. So let's keep going.
Speaker 1:He said you shot at me. His partner says no, I didn't shoot at you, which, to his partner's defense, he may not have heard him shoot. Which, to his partner's defense, he may not have heard him shoot. This is credible. I shouldn't say it's credible. This is plausible. It is plausible that the partner didn't know he fired his gun. He may have been in the pursuit and may have been focused in and the only thing he saw was the taser, because that's what happens at the end. However, that's not what happened. He shot a gun at me. No, I didn't.
Speaker 5:I heard a gun. That wasn't me, bro. He shot a gun.
Speaker 1:So now he's telling the bad guy no, I didn't shoot a gun at you, that wasn't me.
Speaker 5:Gun. How I heard a gun. That's why you used this.
Speaker 1:It's coming out. I heard the difference between a gun and a taser. So that's the end of it. Here's what we don't know. We don't know what the officer reported and what I. I didn't argue it, but what I wanted to give perspective on is that the cop can lie to that suspect. He doesn't have to tell him he fired his gun. There's no legal precedent behind that. However, I think it's unethical and immoral in what we've got going on. Because, one, you got to make sure that guy didn't get shot. Two, you got to make sure somebody else didn't get shot. You got to get notifications out there. You got to let people know as fast as fucking possible that you fired your gun when you didn't mean to fire your gun, so we can make sure nobody else got hit. So I'm gonna leave it at that and I'm gonna go to jared. Then I'm gonna go to von jared. What do you got?
Speaker 4:yeah, I mean, it's one of those things, but one like what does his belt look like? Where does he keep his taser? Where does he keep his gun? Yes, same like I know most agencies the taser policy says you have to cross draw, so meaning you have either the other side or up on your chest or something like that.
Speaker 4:So that's one um and two, you know, dude, you did it like, yeah, you don't have to tell the suspect, but you better be telling somebody that you shot your gun right now and I I will also make.
Speaker 1:And people are like, how could you say he doesn't have to tell him? Listen, if you're trying to keep the suspect calm and you don't want to escalate things, I could see an argument that you were like no, no, dude, we didn't shoot at you. No, no, you want to keep them calm, get them in jail. Okay, cool, that that's the only logical argument about that. I can kind of see. I don't agree with it, but I can kind of see. So, um, von what do you got buddy?
Speaker 3:well, the, the pulling the gun instead of the taser. There's a lot, there's lots of explanations. That does not happen very often, it's pretty rare, but it does happen. When it does happen, it's bad, um, it has to do with automaticity. It has to do with your body's focusing externally, when you should be focusing uh in, uh external broad instead of internal, or uh, external narrow. Um, because we don't think about our draw stroke that much.
Speaker 3:When you're chasing somebody doing a threat assessment, your focus of attention doesn't go to your draw stroke, which is how, in cases where that does happen, you can inadvertently draw your gun, particularly if you're not used to drawing your gun on a sprint, because your hips are moving and people don't really think about this. It changes the angle to the draw, changes. It's. It is not a good deal. Luckily, it doesn't happen very often. But, uh, the other thing is people, they're thinking how, uh, how is it that you don't know the weight, the colors, the way? I think he had a black taser it was cross-draw black taser but um, they don't recognize the weight in the hand. There's a big difference. If you took that gun and that taser back into the jury room and you weighed them, you would definitely see a difference. You'd feel the weight difference difference.
Speaker 3:The problem is, when your body, when your mind, believes that you're doing the right thing, it stops considering it. It's like when you throw a punch, you know how to do it. You don't think about how you throw the punch. When your body believes that you're drawing the right weapon, you are not thinking about it, and so that's how you get those. It's not taser weapon confusion, it's just a performance error. Right, it's a, it's a slip error and so, or yeah, well, it's a performance error.
Speaker 1:So that that happens and it's, it's brutal when it happens. Yeah, um, yep, uh, mama g, fast, I'm sorry. Uh, mama g said, which is why cops should always be recorded. If it wasn't recorded, this Elio could have lied more than he did, and I don't necessarily disagree with that. I am actually very the conscience of myself is kind of shocked that that was the reaction this officer had. That to me is actually very shocking, because me I'd have been like overly apologetic. Oh my god, I was trying to tase you, bro and I pulled my gun in fire. Are you hit? Is there? Are you sure you're not? Let's take your coat off. Let's make sure you're not hit.
Speaker 4:Like that would have been my initial reaction and that, yeah, I mean it didn't show it in the video. Did that happen? Did he even check to make sure that his suspect was okay?
Speaker 1:it ends, I don't know. Um, that's the only video I've been able to find. Actually, when we found this video, it was very fresh. It's still pretty fresh. Um, I imagine von will actually probably be on this case down the road.
Speaker 3:Uh I don't know, but I tell you this though think about this guy. I suspect a lot of times when these happen, these are really good cops. These are not untrained cops. In fact, the more training you have, the higher the chances this could happen. It's really backwards.
Speaker 3:And if you look at this guy, when he was running doing the foot chase, he was narrating to himself oh, I didn't mean to do that, you know, you're hearing, hearing his he's narrating his conscience, but what I saw at the end I don't see a guy who was like intentionally I think the dude went into like when he started to realize the, the enormity of what he had done. He's a his arousal state was probably much higher at that point and he doesn't know what he's doing. At this point he's he's lying, but he's also not rationally planning and cultivating a lie. It's just like the first thing that comes out and shoot you, you know, sort of thing, and it's like ah, yeah, you did Right, there's there's no denying that, right, but it's uh. So I didn't see this as a guy who was like rationally planning, conspiring to tell a lie that he thought was going to hold over.
Speaker 3:Time is my point. This was a guy that was ultra stressed out, realized he just had the biggest ND of his life and was trying to maintain his bearing in front of everybody and his command president says cops, don't let that guard down in that moment. But it was. It's brutal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope he didn't report it. I hope he didn't report.
Speaker 1:I know and and that's what I'm this is where, guys this is the benefit of the show that you're not going to get from a lot of other things that are out there is you're going, you're getting police perspective on what is happening, what we see in front of us and then the transition period between what you see in the body cam versus what actually goes on to paper and goes to court. Again, you guys know, and I've told you all, don't trust cops, don't talk to us. I tell you guys that on the show and I'm a cop If you can plead the fifth, plead the fucking fifth. Don't talk to us. Wait for your lawyer to give you freaking advice. Like that is what you should be doing, and this is one of those things you see is like this officer is actively lying.
Speaker 1:Now we don't know the intention behind it. So let's not jump to conclusions. We don't know what he reports on the official record. So here's the benefit of our show. Now I'm very curious how does he report? I would love to get a follow-up on this. I don't even know where this occurred, so um you always, you always got to work backwards.
Speaker 3:When you see these things at least I do because there are sociopaths in badges, for sure, psychopaths, right, that's fine.
Speaker 3:But when you got these things at least I do because there are sociopaths in badges, for sure, psychopaths, right, that's fine.
Speaker 3:But when you got a guy that you can hear narrating like you could tell he's not a psychopath or a sociopath, he realizes instantly what he did was was a, was a bad, bad bad deal all the way. But he still doesn't know if the guy's armed he still doesn't, is armed, he still doesn't either, but nevertheless, uh, this is a guy you have to imagine is lying intentionally on body camera in front of his partner who he has to somehow imagine is going to back him up in that lie that he shot a gun at somebody right in front of the suspect in public. So I think, if it's true that he knows, he can't get away with it. What are the other explanations, human performance, considerations that would explain why he would say that in that moment? And one of them is a really high cognitive load, massive, you know, blood's left his frontal cortex and he's just like on autopilot at that point and really isn't thinking at all. I'll give him that grace, but but he will have had plenty of time before that moment and putting it on paper.
Speaker 3:No-transcript.
Speaker 1:I'm going to give a shout out here to Harrison Brock. He just gifted 20 memberships to our YouTube channel, so I'm going to go down Everybody that popped up, first and foremost Harrison. Thank you, brother, Very appreciated. All of that money goes to Vaughn. He charges us to be on the show. We're actually like about $40,000 in debt that we owe Vaughn just for showing up tonight.
Speaker 4:Wait, you're getting paid for this Vaughn.
Speaker 1:I'm just joking, guys. Oh, this is one of the the the very rare events that Vaughn just gets to chill back, relax, be himself and have fun behind the cop thing that he gets to do for his career. So it's very fun when we do get to have him on here. So I'm just giving shit. But all the people that got an account tonight got a membership. Scott Young, theron, bell and I don't even know what this is but Senpai, death, senpai, whatever Scary, you got an account. Mickey got one. Mama G oh, mama G actually she's on all the time so she deserves one. So, very cool. Some people may call her Gina. I'm going to go with Gina Marie. Good job, gina.
Speaker 1:Eye of the Night, another dude that often participates. Banning's losing his shit over there. Ryan Holsinger he's another person that comments and gives us enough shit. Shotgun and tattoos. Very, very cool. Sigma, lord man, a lot of people that deserve accounts actually got stuff tonight. T Ward, my coworker. Guys, you got him one. He's not even on tonight, I don't think. Oinker911. I love the name. I like anybody that teases cops. It's fun. Elizabeth Miller, pj, doobie and Edward, I like it. So everybody got an account tonight. Very awesome. Please bring all your thanks to Harrison Brock, because that is who just got your accounts tonight. Very cool, brother, appreciate you.
Speaker 3:Without you guys, we have a competition for the best cocktail.
Speaker 1:What's that?
Speaker 3:We should have a competition for the best cocktail.
Speaker 1:Well fuck, we'd be roasted all night. These guys know how to light us up. Well, fuck, we'd be roasted all night. These guys know how to light us up. Um, let me go to the comments here. How was so many others that regularly show up get one, but not me? Come on marine's blood also is a person that regularly shows up and comments that didn't get one tonight. Man, I would just. If I were you Marines Blood, I would say that God doesn't like you. Maybe, had you joined the Air Force, you would have been a chosen one, but you decided to be a Marine.
Speaker 1:It is what it is. Vaughn's headphones crapped out on him, so it is what it is. Uh, Vaughn's headphones crapped out on him, so uh is what it is. Um, we will keep going with the show. Let's go to the next video, guys, and see what we got.
Speaker 2:Um share screen. He bought those headphones at the same place. I bought my internet, apparently.
Speaker 1:I was telling Vaughn about your uh skull candy issues you had. Oh, do they still make skull candy issues? You had.
Speaker 4:Oh, do they still make skull?
Speaker 1:candy. Yeah, yep, it's still a thing, brother. All right, we are going to go to this video here again. The cool thing about this is none of us have seen these that I know of. If somebody has seen this video, they just won't comment. I have not seen this and everything is from Police Activity YouTube channel. I don't want to know anything about this at all. 3280, 72 Stop, peachtree Road and Sardis Way on a white Ford Transit van Sam David Henry, 0651. Looks like we got a traffic stop. Huh, looks like we got a traffic stop. Okay, so things that I'm noticing as we're parked off of the roadway. This is going to make it a safer approach for us. Looks like a very downtown, city, urban environment, and it looked like we had two officers. Looked like we had the driver and a passenger, so we're going to have a two-officer approach on this. This is about as safe of a traffic stop as you're going to get. So anybody got anything else to add?
Speaker 4:Nope, I'm glad he got it on the road. It saves traffic. That was nice, yep, that makes things easier.
Speaker 1:Cool, All right, we're going to keep going. That makes things easier. Cool, All right, we're going to keep going. Stay behind the B pillar here. What's going on, boss? So we can see both hands? This is a major concern for us as we approach. Once I can see hands, oh my God, this traffic stop becomes the easiest stop it's ever become. So that's what we like to see. Atlanta Police Department.
Speaker 3:Reason for the stop you can't be on that cell phone when you drive. You become so.
Speaker 1:that's what we like to see. Okay Now, not knowing anything about this call, not seeing this video, I did not read the headline, I didn't read whatever that shit was that was at the bottom. He is acting very, very nervous. I can see that already. Did you guys see his hands shaking? Now I'm not there. What we see on body cam if I can see that on body cam, me in person is definitely going to notice some very nervous symptoms. Jared, what do you?
Speaker 4:got. I mean yeah, when I see that I call it out, I'm like hey, man, you okay, you seem nervous, yeah, break the tension.
Speaker 1:Yep Vaughn, what do you got?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sorry I missed a little bit of it. Yeah, I don't like him on his phone, but I, when we do anomalies and baselines the fact that he might've been on his GPS earlier and he still had his phone. When he get up there, I noticed that if he has his ID on his driver's license on his phone, great, it looks like that's what he's pulling up now. I actually have my ID on my phone too, so I kind of believe that. So I'll steal a little bit more of the nervousness. You don't know if it's nervous from just being pulled over, um, or if there's more to it. You know you talk about I don't know how often or what part of city he's in, uh, so I don't know how to. I don't know the baseline for that level of nervousness in that.
Speaker 1:Um shout out to mr billfold he, he dropped two bucks just to say that he sits with alan and, uh, he's for skull candy. So I like it. Thank you, mr Billfold. All right, let's keep going with this. I don't want to give.
Speaker 1:Here's the part of the problem that I get stuck in, guys is I've got in my brain right now what I think is going on. But it's not going to be believable if what I say is going on. But it's not going to be believable if what I say is 100% on, because I haven't read the headlines or whatever. So I'm just going to keep it to myself for right now I don't want to. But this guy is guilty of something. I'm just saying it right now. He's guilty of something that I'm suspecting, but I want to see where this goes. He's very overly dramatic on his movements. This is a this is behavioral things that I'm noticing. He's turning his head, he's, he's, he's. I can't explain. I can't explain it. I don't know how to articulate this is common behavior of somebody that is trying to either hide something or has something going on. But I can feel the energy coming off of this guy From here. I'm pulling him out of the car.
Speaker 1:There's too many people that sit down and look at their phone. That is not normal. A person that gets pulled over a normal nine out of 10 stops. They're going to be like oh you know, sorry officer, what was I doing? You know they're going to be looking for their license if they're asked that, but they're not going to be head down in their phone and then very jerky with I don't know how to explain it. Anyway, um, oh, oh, oh, holy cow. Uh, I want to give some shout-outs before we keep going. Shotguns and Tattoos just gifted five more membership. Oh, please, let Marine Bloods have gotten one of these, just so you guys know they're random. There's no control. The person that gifts these memberships, they have no control over it.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's good to know. I thought they were directed.
Speaker 1:No, no, it's just random, random, it goes to anybody. That's a part of the subscription. So, sir benjamin got one. Sir benjamin, king pin king 554 got one. Uh, dead leg got one. Hell yeah, dead leg is actually a part of what we're doing. So, dead leg got one. Uh, keith roberts got one, and then uh, joe ermold got one. So, oh man, oh man, I'm not gonna lie. I think uh, marine blood's gonna gonna rage here in a second. Mr billfold said not lie, his body language is sus as fuck. That's 30 years of poker talking. Yeah, I'm with you, brother.
Speaker 4:My resolution isn't high enough. Can you see his pupils in yours?
Speaker 1:No, no, I can't. Let's keep going here, all right? No.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:One person needs to talk Now.
Speaker 3:Look, listen, Atlanta is just a ticket. Now, if you're lying to me, then we're going to have to go home. I got this. All right, all right, boss, honestly go a long way.
Speaker 1:Your boy's like here you go. I got me some buds here so he obviously smelled it. So that's cool, all right. Now he's not wrong. Honestly does go a long way. Um, oh shit, we got damn everybody's going nuts tonight. I appreciate harrison decided to go, so harrison gave 25 memberships tonight marine blood, I'm rooting for you.
Speaker 4:I mean, I am rooting for marine blood.
Speaker 1:Let's see t T-Battle got one. Perry Lemley, who is a constant contributor, yes, he deserved one, absolutely. I'm surprised this guy didn't get one. Steve Wallace, some of the things you bring up stream light signs of high-functioning autism and ADHD. True, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:That's actually a good point. Meanwhile got a membership Deadpool. Deadpool actually comments every so often, and then, oh, I thought that was Marine Blood. It said Martin Neff Got it. No offense, martin Neff, you deserve it too. Buddy, thank you. Without y'all we would not be able to do what we do. Very cool. Thank you, harrison. And marine blood get fucked. Uh, so, uh, poor guy, I know. Oh shit, I love it.
Speaker 5:let's see, okay now for those out there, if you're rolling around. I mean, this is a little you know what I'm saying a little too grand man.
Speaker 3:This ain't nothing.
Speaker 1:Okay now for those out there if you're rolling around with dope, know that this is what's going to happen next. When you own up to that in the way that this guy did, we're going to search that car. That's the next step. I'm pulling you out and we're going to search that car.
Speaker 3:Vaughn, you got anything else on that? Nope, you're right, it's a. I mean you look at like, uh, chase hughes is uh how to anticipate or how to deter? Uh, how do you uh observe and detect deception? One of the things is you admit to the small things and you hope that they won't ask about the big things. Someone hands something over.
Speaker 1:That's the small thing you're like start right, all right, all right, let's see what. Let's see what happens from here.
Speaker 3:All right we're gonna get you out the car. We're gonna search the wrestling car, all right, all right, step out for me step out for me, just turn around for me, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, officers, here's a tip when you ask them to step out of the car, figure out another reason to get them out of the car. It doesn't Free up your hands.
Speaker 1:Yeah, free up your hands. Hey, boss, I appreciate you being honest. Show me the weed. I just want to get you out of the car While we, while we run your information. Uh, can you come back to the car with me? That's it. Like I'm going to freestyle, do whatever I got to do, but I'm not going to tell you. Hey, I need you to get out of the car now. Thanks for your honesty. Now we're going to search it, because I have just invited this guy to resist and fight in any other way that he sees fit, because he knows if there's more in that car, he's in Foxville. So Mr Belfort said he ate the napalm flavored Koreans.
Speaker 1:Okay, brandar just got five more memberships. Oh, my God, I hope, I hope, I hope he doesn't get one. Okay, let's go down the list. Let's see who we got. Here we go. Here's the first one. Cheyenne Schrock got the first membership. Brian Dane got the next RB8819. Remods and Marine Bloods. We appreciate your support though, brother. Thank you for continuously showing up and helping out the show. Free McKees Love you guys. And if there isn't anything else, the driver just lost all trust. Yeah, just because you handed over your weed doesn't earn your trust, guys. That's not how that works. My advice to y'all if you've got weed in the car, just keep your mouth shut. Answer the questions they ask. If you don't want to answer, say I'm not going to answer that question. I'm looking out for y'all. Keep going, wait a minute. Okay, if he's going to resist, this is going to be the time right here.
Speaker 5:This old marijuana. What's up Publica?
Speaker 1:is marijuana.
Speaker 2:Boss, stop moving. Stop moving, Boss, boss stop.
Speaker 1:Stop. Okay, from here I am pinning you against the vehicle. If somebody's going to resist, it's usually when the metal hits the wrist. That is a common Vaughn. You've been a part of a lot of use of force cases, I bet.
Speaker 3:When do they usually start resisting? Yeah, you're right, but you want to know why. They do it at that moment, you're right, it's at that point of contact because up until that time you think about it psychologically, they still believe they have a chance to avoid this. They can talk their way out of it. There's still a window of opportunity. They're not going to get arrested. Something could happen, even if they don't know what that is. They're waiting for the miracle. Something could happen, even if they don't know what that is. They're waiting for the miracle once that first touch cup is coming. Now they know that window slams shut and that that's when they react. So it you think it has something to do with the physical touch, but it's not. It's. It's, it's what it symbolizes that that window has slammed shut. They're done now.
Speaker 3:They got to fight their way out of it and and these are people that are completely cooperative because they're trying to run games, right, right, so they're trying to be like oh yes, sir, absolutely sir, and or, you know, I got a medical emergency, I can't breathe.
Speaker 3:You know, you start to hear all the things for compassion. I appreciate what you guys are doing out here and, yep, you know, on and on and in that first touch, they realize none of that game is going to work anymore. They are going jail, particularly if they know they have more in the car. So the fight's on. So, yeah, that's absolutely one of the foundational rules of policing, which is why and I think, jared you can clear your hands, put them in a position of disadvantage. If they're worth arresting, they're worth spreading their feet apart, getting their hands away from the body, doing something to put them in a position of disadvantage, which also gives you a lot of threat indications right Risk assessment, threat indicators, pre-attack indicators Because if they're not willing to put themselves into a position of disadvantage, how much less willing are they going to be for you to just walk up and punch them?
Speaker 4:Plus he's a big boy. Like fighting that. I don't want to fight that guy, you know, yeah, he's always me quite a bit yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, you're an underwear model that makes sense now where's his backup?
Speaker 3:searching a car like that's. The other thing is the guy got false, into a false sense of complacency. But if you have overwhelming odds, if you got two against one at least, but then you don't take advantage of it, right, and it was because the guy was, he was presuming compliance. That's what we call it. Like you, we train us not to presume compliance and this is something that's important for the community to know. There are. There is tactical deception, right? So we add that to our list of things that we call what cops know reasonable emphasis.
Speaker 3:If, if you hear somebody saying I can't breathe, or out of my arm, or wait, wait, wait, my arm doesn't move that way, that may very well be true and you have to consider that that might be true. But from a cop's perspective, you hear that so frequently as tactical deception. Just to buy time, get a little bit of positions of advantage, get a tactical advantage so they can resist that. You have to note it. But then you have to mitigate it. It does not necessarily mean you have to be like, okay, I'm sorry, back up, cause I've got some great videos where officers or the guys like, ow, ow, I can't move my arm that way. Just wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 3:And you know most people who don't understand police. I'm going to be like why is that officer? He told him his arm hurts, right? He told him he can't breathe. Why is he still doing that? And then the guy, as soon as the officer let go and said fine, then put your hand. This way, the guy pulls the gun and kills the officer, shoots the officer in the head. So this is what cops know. And so when I'm watching this guy being calm, it looked like the officer got kind of lulled into that false sense of security and decided to do a one-on-one arrest with a severe weight. I don't know what the cop looked like, so maybe this guy was a little bit of a cop. Yeah, possible.
Speaker 1:But you're right, that is a common problem. When we ride two-man versus riding single-man in a patrol vehicle, we get a false sense of security and we take more risk. That is a proven, researched, scholarly thing that you can look into, that police officers typically take more risk riding two-man versus being in a car by themselves. So, taylormade, actually make the point. Just remember that the taser is yellow, hopefully, and the gun is black. Some officers have gotten confused about what is what and the gun is black. Some officers have gotten confused about what is what. We just watched a video where the guy chased after and he fired a black taser, and this just happened a few days ago. So not every taser is yellow. Just saying, but let's keep going.
Speaker 2:I'm moving. That's my last time telling you to stop Stop.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you right now, the moment, I'm going to give you one. This is. Somebody asked what would Sarge do? This is Sarge. I'm going to get your hands behind your back and I can tell if you're too thick for me to get one set of cuffs on you versus two. I've done it enough. Some of you fatties out there need two sets of cuffs and you don't have the shoulder mobility. I understand that I'm going to be able to feel that pretty damn quick, like Banning Banning's probably going to be a two-cuff guy, so he three, as he just said. So, but I'm going to be able to tell pretty quick when I start putting your hands together, if I think I'm going to be able to get one set of cuffs on you and you start to pull that wrist, you're going to the ground, I'm not fucking around.
Speaker 1:So some of us have wondered and have asked on this show, like why is he using force? The guy didn't do anything. Here's why, if I take this guy to the ground now, I have prevented a larger use of force later on. I've handled business up front. It's the way I like to think of it and I got the cuffs on by only slamming him to the ground. That's the hope Versus a higher use of force where I have to try to fight with him and then I go to pepper spray, a baton or taser. That's a higher use of force. So that's why I use force now, to prevent higher use of force later. That's something to consider.
Speaker 4:Can you put Taylor Maid's comment up on the board, this one, the Ask, tell, make. Yeah, that is a huge one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ask, tell, make. Really simple. It seems that the officers like to go from three back to one and it repeats yeah, that is the problem with de-escalation, verbal judo and the ask, tell, make principle. Each call kind of dictates how that's going to go and each officer has their own view on that. Sometimes I have asked, asked, asked, asked, asked, asked, asked and then got my way and it's worked because that's how I felt. On that call Versus. Sometimes I have asked, tell, make and it worked. On that call Vaughn, what do you?
Speaker 3:got yeah. So ask, tell, make is definitely an old school. I want to ask if Taylor was in the military, because we get that from our military police, we get that from our military police. What cops are trained at now is ask, tell, why give options? Confirm resistance. And so you use ethical, rational, personal, practical persuasion. But that generation of voluntary compliance, the ask, tell, why give options? Ethical, rational, personal persuasions, that's when you have sufficient containment and control, when you have time, when you have what we call discretionary time, when you have sufficient containment, sufficient control, you have those two things. We call that discretionary time.
Speaker 3:With discretionary time you can engage in verbal judo, persuasion, de-escalation, whatever it happens to be, but in this case he does not have containment or control and so it is, but he has to be able to explain that. So ask, tell, make will get you in trouble in policing. Now that's. That's not the standard. It is, it's ask, tell why, give options which start with the positive, end with negative and then confirm resistance. That's the persuasion cycle and the power of that, just so everyone knows, is there's only four types of persuasion. It's ethical, rational, personal, practical persuasions. And when you use that policing cycle of ask, tell why, give options, confirm resistance, you have used every type of persuasion known to man right and you can testify that you did that. Now, how many cycles you do that? Because that's what this is about.
Speaker 3:In the mental health community they say you might have to repeat, you might have to repeat multiple times. They don't say how often that is and they don't talk about imminent threats With police. I teach a class called the Bridge from De-escalation to Use of Force, and we specifically focus on when do you shut up in force compliance, when do you stop talking to force compliance? And the short version is when you, when you do not when you no longer have sufficient containment or control. And when I mean control, I don't mean just physical control, I mean the guy.
Speaker 3:If the guy is posing an imminent threat to a government interest, if he's about to run, if he's about, if he's beating someone up, if he's about to assault you, then you don't have control. So it's not just physical control about to assault you, then you don't have control. So it's not just physical control. If you don't have control, you don't have discretionary time and you have to force compliance. So I'll throw that out there, because it is expected with sufficient discretionary time. You do repeat yourself. You do repeat yourself. What Eric's got is yeah, not in the middle of a fight, like if I'm already engaged. We're not just going to keep repeating ourselves over and over yeah, up bannings.
Speaker 1:I just wrap him up, problem solved, threat gone, cuffed, and then we can speak again. Yeah, it's easy if you're a fucking country boy that's three pounds and just can manhandle everybody that we run across, it's like.
Speaker 3:Yeah, uh, I'm like oh, like betty's, like I have a question all right, let's keep going like he took him to the ground.
Speaker 1:We're gonna tease you okay, so both officers are on great verbal commands from here. They're doing everything. I would do one I know where to go now.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, that is fucking genius. You want to try to take somebody out of the game mentally. Now, where are you gonna go thicken? You aren't running anywhere. Everybody knows that. You have the freaking, you know running capacity of a damn hippopotamus. You're not going anywhere. That was brilliant. I really like that. He did that. That was a mental defeat right there. So I like nelson, I like nelson's answer.
Speaker 3:Though, Eric, he took himself out of the fight because he got creative. He took. But again, tactics are discretionary. They're caught with risk benefits trade-offs. He knew what he was feeling, he knew what, where the guy was looking, what maybe he was trying to get to, maybe. So he made a tactical decision that we might have agreed with or disagreed with, and that's okay. Reasonable people can disagree. But my first thought was you don't have control yet. You left your partner to fight this big boy. You presumed it was because he wanted to get in the car, but you don't know whether he's got that gun on him and the reason he's fighting so hard is because he's got that gun on him. He knows he's about to get caught with a gun.
Speaker 1:So I didn't like it from this perspective. But I'm not in the fight either. Right, and that goes into yeah, you're right, it just depends on how we are. You know your partner, you know what their capabilities are. These are things to consider. Us sitting back here in Monday morning quarterbacking. We don't have the right to sit back and say that, so that's good.
Speaker 3:He's up too right. We kind of know the. We kind of know he didn't hold it down.
Speaker 1:Yep, so fair enough, and it looks like this guy is still on the ground. Jared, I just want to make sure that you're having a good time. Our buddy, chris, mentioned you, so I want to make sure that you're in the mood for hot dogs tonight, yeah.
Speaker 4:I saw his shout out. It was very nice of him.
Speaker 1:Yes, alright. So for everybody out there, for me, what's on the table? Taser, pepper spray, baton, all those things are on the table With two of us and just the climax, climax, that's the wrong word. The climate of policing Easy banning you, dirty-minded son of a bitch. The climate of policing. I'm going to stick to grappling the best that I can, as long as I know this guy doesn't have any sort of weapons on him. And as I'm fighting him, that's what I'm feeling, for I'm going to feel the waistband. I'm going to check the high-risk areas as we're fighting. So, as I fight somebody, that's what I'm looking for, mr Belfort.
Speaker 3:Just so you know, that is not a standard, uh, generally accepted police practice. So if I'm ever testifying and someone's, like our cops, trained to also pat people down during the fight, I'm like no, yeah, I know that's a high and I've tried to explain that to people before, like I have been like grabbing somebody.
Speaker 1:They're standing. I want to. I want, want to set the stage for y'all. This guy was standing. He's pulling away from me, he's trying to run from me. I have my hands around his hips. I am actively frisking him as I foot sweep him and take him down to the ground, and I explain this in my use of force report. I'm like I felt his waistband. I felt no risk of any weapons being drawn, so I stuck with using joint manipulations and da-da-da-da-da, I was able to get this guy and effect the arrest. And they asked me they're like what do you mean? You were frisking him as you were fighting him. I'm like well, I could give a shit less what he does with his hands. He's not going to hurt me. What I'm worried about is a knife or a gun, so I was making sure he didn't have one Once I knew he didn't have one in his pockets or on his waistband. Fuck him, I'm going to win. So that's.
Speaker 3:Hey, eric, fuck him, I'm gonna win. So, uh, that's, that's. Hey eric, did I ever tell you the story of the guy who got in a fight with his girl, with his daughter's boyfriend, and he beat the other little crap out of that boy, uh, who broke into his house threatening him? So he beat him up like a, like a man beats another man trying to step up to him, and he was alpha. He beat him down and the, the teenage man, ran out of the house and then the dad died right there, fell to the ground and died. This was one of our cases, because he had no idea that the guy had a little blade like that and he thought he was in a fist fight and instead he was getting stabbed repeatedly in the chest. So he won the fist fight and died on the on the living room floor. Uh, so stop it.
Speaker 1:Well, sir, I will say this when I am going against somebody.
Speaker 1:Their hands are not free, they're not moving around. Um, I understand the dynamics of underhooks and overhooks and, uh, utilizing those to my advantage. Um have a high, higher than normal that I don't expect regular cops to have level of grappling. I've been grappling since 06. Do not listen to how I police. I recommend that grappling is a part of your life in policing. But you cannot police like me, not that mine is better or worse. Do as I say, not as I do as long as I can say as long as I can use that quote in court.
Speaker 3:He said you cannot police like me.
Speaker 1:Do not do as I do. Do as I say. That's what I tell my troops. They're like Sarge, you told us not to go into a fight. I'm like well, I knew what was going on, I'm all right, we're fine. Shout out to Mr Billfold Thank you very much. Remember, for two months, level Baker's Dozen, that's our highest. That's what we have. Click to join. Click the three dots Upper right corner. Select gift settings. Guys, he's trying to help you all out so you can get your free memberships. Mr Biffold also said Ozark, click join, then the channel membership will come up In that screen. There are three dots and then an X in the corner. So let's keep going with the video. Let's see where we go stop, get on the ground.
Speaker 3:You got nowhere to go.
Speaker 1:Get on the ground okay, they're trying to use words not working. He turned towards him Ample, ample time to follow verbal orders. He did not. He continued. He went towards the officer oh, it's in Atlanta. So he went towards the officer, went towards the officer with the taser, went towards both of them and still refused to get on the ground.
Speaker 4:Oh my God, he also plays partner downrange of that taser.
Speaker 1:Ah, he's used to that. He'll be like. That's a discussion for after the call. Okay, from here. Oh, andy, even said he's reaching.
Speaker 3:I would say that's a fair assessment, as my man's pulling his pants down to reach into his pants, that's good comms, though right because one one is saying, uh, stop, okay, stop, and you got to tell him why you're still doing it. He's reaching. That was a recent case where they said, uh, okay, he has nothing, has nothing, and the back office was like he's got a knife in his hand, like this is actually good comms. And do not assume that what you're seeing, the other person is seeing. And if you're a witness and this is good for our community members you're seeing it from a very different vantage point. You're looking at very different things. Even the officers are seeing a very different event and are experiencing the event. They're not witnessing it, they're experiencing it For him to not just see it and have the wherewithal to actually communicate it is actually good he's reaching.
Speaker 5:Stop, roll over. Roll the fuck over.
Speaker 1:Now we've got Stop no.
Speaker 5:I was going to say now we've got compliance. Stop. No, I was going to say, now we've got compliance, stop, stop. I'm about to fucking chase you again. Nobody's throwing any strikes yet.
Speaker 1:Looks like we're double cuffing.
Speaker 5:Yeah, he's a thicken, beautiful.
Speaker 1:All right, with that I will say fucking, that's pretty textbook, like I mean for what was presented in front of them. They handled business. The only thing that wasn't textbook was the. I liked that the officer decided to grab the keys and actually tell the guy like now you're not going fucking anywhere. I wouldn't have thought of that, I wouldn't have. I'd have been handling business on the ground. Curious what the conversation was like after the call. So David Edmondson said I've seen this one. Please play it till the end to really understand how stupid this perp was. Okay.
Speaker 5:I'm interested now.
Speaker 1:Now you've got me, you had. What does he say? That's clickbait. You had my curiosity, now you have my interest.
Speaker 4:I need an ad for that guy's company or something let me see here yeah, we're to the end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, alright brought to you by.
Speaker 5:Hotlamp you alright it's over now you, alright. No man, alright, what's wrong? Alright, yeah, we good. No man, all right. What's wrong? Let me out this car? No, all right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we good, While I'm searching the vehicle.
Speaker 1:I instinctively walk to the rest of the store to discover multiple cases of zip steel, cases of marijuana, suspected cocaine and methamphetamine. Oh, my God, Dude, I tell you buddy, 2.5 pounds each, a total weight of 2.5 pounds each, a total weight of 12.5 pounds. Yeah, dang, 35 vacuums for bums that suspect marijuana so that's why he was nervous. 22 vacuums for the bags of suspected crystal meth with a weight of 24 pounds each. A couple of 24 pounds for a weight of suspected crystal meth 144 pounds yeah.
Speaker 1:That's some shit man. Officers also recovered over $72,000 in cash.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the combo is in the wrong place. I'm with you on this. You already know it's dope.
Speaker 4:You stop searching.
Speaker 3:Rip stuff open Get your two-mounted Right.
Speaker 1:What if it's fentanyl? Yeah.
Speaker 3:I was like what are you doing?
Speaker 1:hey, man, that's what they did on Miami Vice. The next thing they're gonna do is they're gonna lick their knife yeah that's real shit.
Speaker 3:No, the next thing they're gonna, next thing they're gonna do, yeah, fentanyl, next thing they're gonna do is take a photo.
Speaker 1:Oh for sure you got to have a trophy picture. Listen, I'm not above a trophy picture y'all. If I help make a huge bust, I'm going to take a trophy picture. There we go, wow.
Speaker 3:Hell, yeah. Yeah, it was worth watching to the end. There was a guy. I pulled over on a pickup truck for a loud stereo, like big bumping stereo. I get him out. And I asked him hey, do me a favor, step to the back of the truck with me. He does no problem. And I said hey, I just stopped you for the car stereo. I'm just going to give you a warning on that.
Speaker 5:I'm not going to write you a ticket, but it is late at night, so can you turn it down, what he's like.
Speaker 3:I said, hey, you're free to go before you leave is okay if I talk to you for a second. He's like sure I go anything illegal in the car because that's all consensual right.
Speaker 1:Hold on, let's. Let's not gloss over that, because I want, I want to understand what you just did.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I say I'm giving a, giving your words. You have to make your enforcement decision. You got to make sure they have their license back. So if you don't want to have any trouble getting consent, you can't be hanging over anything over their head. So make sure they have their license, any documentation. Make sure you told them. You don't have to tell them they're free to go, but it always on the scale looks better if you do. But there's no requirement to tell them that. The question is, would a reasonable person have felt like they were free to leave? So I tell them hey, appreciate it, I'm going to give you a warning. So I made my enforcement decision. I give them the license back and I say you're free to go. Hey, before you leave, is it OK if I talk to you? If they say, sure, that's consensual. Now I don't have a timeline, I can keep them there as long looking for drugs, whatever the case may be.
Speaker 3:He said okay, if I search your car. He said, sure, I have a back officer with me. I walk up, I pull the bucket seat forward, I shut it back, I walk back and I arrest him. He had just pounds and pounds and pounds of drugs just sitting right there. You got to ask yourself. He had it on the floorboard of the passenger side. He had the entire back of his pickup bed filled with drugs and I was like what are you thinking? You know what his answer was. I thought if I said you could, you wouldn't, you wouldn't. You tried reverse technology. Yeah, he did. I was like he's okay by himself.
Speaker 1:I had a guy. Real quick I had a guy give me permission to search his vehicle. I ended up only finding like a couple joints on them. They were sweating, acting real nervous. The passenger threw up. Um long story short, I let him go. But I did a really detailed report because they were arian brotherhood guys. They had two five-gallon buckets of meth oil in the truck and because I described it so well in my information report and tagged narcotics, they realized what I had found and they ended up going back and finding those guys within 18 hours and then finding the meth oil. I had never heard of meth oil. I was just a patrol officer, like I knew what meth was but I thought it was like transmission oil or something like that. Didn't know.
Speaker 4:Makes you crawl a little faster.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I had used like a stir stick that they had in the back of their truck to make sure there was like no keys hiding in the bucket. And I I described the color of the liquid in my report. I was like, yeah, it has some sort of red liquid and they said it was transmission fluid and you know, that made sense. They were truck guys, they worked on trucks, as you know mechanics and whatever but I knew the way they were behaving was not right. So there was something there that I just wasn't getting and, yeah, it ended up being meth oil, one of the biggest busts that I had missed out on because I didn't know any better. But two, five gallon buckets for anybody wondering, the size of a bust is basically on weight and liquid is the heaviest form that you're going to get. So I missed out on that. But is what it is? So let's uh, let's go to the next video here, share and big size and play, all right Things.
Speaker 1:I'm noticing right away Winter roads. It's at night. Traffic tends to be less at night, but we've got winter roads, so that is a factor. We can't get too high speed chasing this person, but they can't get too high speed because they'll just lose control real quick. So things to consider we have no idea. We're going to give updates, deeds, direct travel Luckily it looks like a single cab truck where there's probably only two people in there at most. Not going to be a very high speed pursuit. Not going to put very well either. Nowhere I'm at, we cannot fit. That's scary. Okay, jared, from here, how are you handling this?
Speaker 4:I mean you're in a shit situation right now. Right Now you're face-to-face with them.
Speaker 1:So you know, try and get some sort of cover that's going back behind your trunk.
Speaker 4:It looks like he's in a Crown Vic, so you can hopefully see that's going back behind your trunk. It looks like he's in a Crown Vic, so you can hopefully see up over the top of your car. Or you're stuck with your car door.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a shitty spot to be in Banning. I'm going to give you an opportunity to try to talk here. Let's see what the fuck you can say with your shitty internet. Can you hear me? I can hear you. Holy shit you. Can you hear me? I can hear you. Holy shit, you can hear me.
Speaker 2:Excuse my friend hear you for now. My god, okay, I didn't get to see the video, but at least I can talk.
Speaker 1:Go ahead you didn't see it I only saw bits and pieces okay, all right, we'll keep going.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to make sure we can hear you, then we'll keep. We'll keep going. Basically, they pit maneuvered this vehicle on a traffic uh pursuit. We didn't. We have no idea why or what's going on, so I'm gonna keep going from here. Oh my god, guys, pin him. Why are we stopping? Pin that vehicle. I would positive pressure every side of this car. That's what I would be going for from here. But, vaughn, you do what you got to do. Buddy, let me know, vaughn, if something comes up and you got to go. I want to give you an opportunity to say goodbye. So, um, so, from here, I would be pinning this vehicle. Jared, what do you got?
Speaker 4:so my agency, we cannot pin um. That being said, you know, if circumstances dictate. I don't know the totality of circumstances by in this call um, but yes, I would like to see a pin as well. Um, but all around you are setting up yourself for horrible crossfire.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, absolutely so um yeah. Oh yeah, I didn't even consider that. Yeah, you're right, this fucking gas station.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I put it next to the gas station. That was my good job on that. Don't end up thinking the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't. Guys, the smoke wagon's hitting me pretty hard. I'm not going to lie. I'm not thinking as clearly as I normally would, I'm getting a little loose. So I do want to give out shotguns and tattoos. Gave out five memberships. So Steve Wallace, who is probably the most deserving of anybody to get that, because he has never missed a live that I've seen. He's the only one that's never missed a live. So Lucia received one. Rico Suave great song, I remember that. And Beers with Bears. I like that. That's actually a really cool name. So all got one. Tim said who runs from cops in the snow. That's the single most stupidest thing you can do in the north. That is true. But hey, desperate times calls for desperate measures. Man, All right, let's keep going. Stop, or you're going to get bit by a dog Stop, stop or exit the vehicle.
Speaker 1:Exit the vehicle with your hands up. One person's talking. I like that, bye-bye. Get back in the car Whoa. K9, you're itching. This is your realm here. Banner, he just bumped his own guy. We're we're all reverse pursuing right now. That's a first. I don't think I've ever seen that like bonnie go, yeah, oh, he said over here. Yeah, oh, he said he'll be right back. For those that don't think canines love what they do, here is an exact example of the. They fucking love it.
Speaker 2:Pause. That for one second, Eric.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's paused, buddy.
Speaker 2:Okay, just sorry, I got a lag, I might not apologize. So here's the deal. We just watched him do a pit maneuver. Traffic is obviously light when he's backing up and those units are backing into each other. Would you not see it plausible for one of those units?
Speaker 2:I understand that some of us here in our policies we couldn't box people in or whatnot. If we can do a pit maneuver and work with me on this, because I'm just spitballing, you can do a pit maneuver on this why can't we stop it before it becomes a pit maneuver? It's going to be less damage. We can box it in, be done with it, extract, go to a felony. You know, stop and be done with it. I mean, do you agree or not? No, absolutely agree. I mean I understand policies there, but if you can articulate the facts enough to where you don't want this to get up to a high speed chase, we're going to get it to where it's locked in, right then.
Speaker 2:And there, yes, you may get written up yada, yada, yada. I'd rather take a write up than somebody else on the highway getting hurt. And if they're going to fire me for that, they're going to fire me for that. To begin with, we go into a felony traffic stop. Articulate very well in our report, go through our aar, for if you don't know what that means, our after action report at whatever department we work with. Just freaking stop that mess, be done with it. Articulate it very well and then maybe command staff needs to look at our freaking general orders or whatever they're calling your department to relook at that, especially when you get ice on the ground and snow on the ground like this yep, yep, agreed, all right, let's Marine Bloods take it easy tonight.
Speaker 1:Buddy, I see you're logging out, but, man, if anybody deserved to get an account, but didn't, it's you. But if I was going to laugh at anybody more, it would be you. So that's funny. So see you, bud. All right, keep going, it would be you. So, uh, that's funny. So see you, bud. All right, let's keep going. It does become a point where you realize the guy's just being an asshole. He's not. He's not gonna be an actual threat. I don't think this guy's going to be an actual threat, but he is. He's bordering on that line. Oh, the dog in the truck, holy shit.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God. That is the ultimate fuck. All right there, damn. What do you do? I'm going to go, I'm going to go, I'm going to go, I'm going to go, I'm going to go, I'm going to go. Oh my God, that is the ultimate fuck. All right there, damn. What do you do? All right, I've never been a canine guy, jared, have you ever done canine? No, okay, banning has, so banning's our expert.
Speaker 2:What the fuck. I mean, here's the deal. I'm going to go back. I'm sorry, I'm sure these are great cops. Stop that shit when it stopped earlier. I don't care if you got any stop sticks or whatever. When you start getting that momentum back up and I'm preaching to the choir, even everybody that's watching get the shit stopped now. If you want to deploy a dog, that's fine. I don't know what the initial stop was, other than I think somebody said DUI or somebody mentioned alcohol Maybe it was in a comment, right, but we got to stop that. I mean, this guy gets up to high speed and hits somebody. It's on us, right, we had so many chances to stop this, but right here, here's the deal. The dude's obviously not stopping.
Speaker 2:K-9 is considered less than lethal. Okay, depending on where the dog bites. If you have enough training, you can articulate that we can deploy that dog. As you can see, he looks like he's a sergeant or corporal. He still has what's called a long lead or a medium lead. That's on that dog. He's giving the command to engage. He's not giving the command to go in there and step. He's giving the command to engage. So what he's trying to do is, once that dog attaches, he can digress with the dog, he can pull that dog back out, that he can maintain control of that subject.
Speaker 1:So I don't I don't have the problem with a dog deployment, as long as that dog is trained properly okay, now my only concern is if that car is not 100 stopped, what do they do if that guy pulls off with the dog still in the car?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, I had a habit of you know, regardless of policy. I broke policy on several occasions. Here I am, I'm still here, as long as you articulate it, everything that's going on in that pursuit. If you want to box him in and you get a little dent in the car that's the size of a credit card, suck it. We're stopping the guy from hurting the public. Just do it and be done with it. Go against public. Just do it and be done with it. Yeah, go against the civil review panel or whatever, but just get it stopped. I understand these policies. There's good, good reason for those, but come on.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna push back on mr billfold here. He said eric laughs at marine blood but does his pt test on exercise bike. No sir, I run a mile and a half. I do my push-ups and I do my sit-ups. Thank you very much. So yeah, that's where we're at. I actually ran three miles today Did you say plural. What did you say?
Speaker 3:You want us to believe you do plural push-ups. Yes, sir.
Speaker 1:I do, you do. I will push back on a lot of. What is fun for me is when I show up to my military time and I do my PT test and I score, you know, a 92 to a 96. I usually I will never get 100. Here's why.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, no no.
Speaker 1:It's the run time that gets me. I cannot run a mile and a half in 928. That is I don't.
Speaker 2:I'm 42, 42, I don't care who you are hey, eric, I may be a big guy now, but the marines, I was doing an 18 minute three mile and that's uh, that's moving pretty yeah yeah, I was too bitch when I was in my 20s, but guess what?
Speaker 1:I'm 42 now.
Speaker 2:So you want to see how fast I can do in a tahoe now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if I want to get 100 on my PT test, I have to run a 928 mile and a half, and that is not happening.
Speaker 4:I'm a runner, I can't even do that Right.
Speaker 1:I'm a runner and I ran three miles today. I ran three miles in the hills, 217 elevation, and I did it in 29 minutes and some change maybe 18 seconds. Not terrible. But if I'm gonna go out and run a flat 1.5 miles, my best and I'm talking running out of my shoes I'm lucky if I'm gonna get 12 to 11, 30 somewhere in there. I am not getting anywhere fucking close to 928. Kiss my ass. I can max out on push-ups, I can max out on sit-ups, but I'm not gonna come close to that run time it's just never, what's your max?
Speaker 3:what is the max I?
Speaker 1:believe from my age bracket it's 55, 52 to 55, somewhere in there are these real push-ups or are they kind of like the? When I say real.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying anything negative. There are some branches that do different things. Hand placement how far it's a fist?
Speaker 1:Yes, it's a fist. Your chest has to hit the fist, and then sit-ups is elbows got to touch the thighs. That's it. So it's old school, bro, it's not anything fancy.
Speaker 3:I don't care how old you are. The standard for push-ups for us and we were Army, we weren't Marines the standard for push-ups was 110 for our crew, and I don't mean our total points. That's how many reps you had to do in two minutes, oh, in two minutes. I've got a minute, I gotta do 55.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, okay, fair enough I can watch someone run three miles in 18 minutes from my truck while I'm eating tacos. That is the life, sir. I fucking love tacos. I'm with you. So, all right, I want to see how this this call plays a little too casual for me, I would. Uh, nobody's got a gun out, but yet we're deploying the dog. Nobody's on the other side of the vehicle that I'm seeing. Okay, and that's all we get? Okay, fair enough, fair enough, we've got to share this video. Instead. We got one more video. Guys, we're going to share this last video. Let's see what we got. We've got no lights on our view. Okay, we got our gloves. All right, if I were to guess right now, this car was either abandoned in the street and they're running the plate and doing what they're doing, or we've got a drunk passed out behind the wheel.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was going to go with that one.
Speaker 1:That's kind of how I'm seeing this. I'm still leaning towards drunk. Now can see him like he's passed out. Okay for me, this is how I would handle it. I'm gonna back off, I'm gonna get my car nosed up, nose to nose a little positive pressure. But I want a secondary unit to come up and hit the back side of this car so this car cannot wake up and then suddenly hit the gas pedal.
Speaker 3:Yep, you got stop sticks. Are you thinking stop sticks? Yep, yep.
Speaker 1:Piranhas is what we call them, or you can actually get out the full stop sticks if you want, but we have something called piranhas or terminators, and those are made to be deployed by hand underneath the tires. So I would agree that's another option here.
Speaker 3:Roll down the window.
Speaker 1:Chat's giving you some love, jared, and.
Speaker 4:Vaughn, it's locked.
Speaker 1:Your boy is wasted. That's what this is. Hey, roll down the window, put your car in park. Car in park, kay's awake.
Speaker 5:Car in park.
Speaker 1:Hey, nope, k is awake what are you going to do? Stop this is where you just abandon. Jump in your vehicle, get the fuck out of the way and just wait to see what's going to happen. Put it in park.
Speaker 2:Put it in park, jump in your vehicle get the fuck out of the way and just wait to see what's going to happen.
Speaker 4:Put it in park, put it in park.
Speaker 1:Nope, hang on snap. I don't know what he just swung at him, just crashed.
Speaker 4:What did he crash into? Get out of the car. I'm sorry, sir, I'm sorry. There you go.
Speaker 5:Get out of the car, nope nope, nope, stop, stop, get out of the car, get out of the car, get out of the car, get out of the car, get out of the car.
Speaker 1:There's no training for this. It doesn't matter who you are. There's no training for this. What do you? Got Jared?
Speaker 4:I mean, did he throw something at the car when he pulled away? Like, was he pissed off and threw something?
Speaker 1:I think he hit it with the baton.
Speaker 4:Okay, I was trying to figure out what he did.
Speaker 1:I think that's what he was trying to do.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean you're in a crap situation but, like I said, I would agree with you Just disengage, wait for it to land or get some more friends out there. But he's crashed Now you got to deal with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're in the car, I mean my man's in car. So freeman keys said I have to get up early. Thank you, eric banning, jared vaughn and alan love hanging with you guys at an issue with how police work, but you guys do well explaining shit. Appreciate y'all, thank you very much appreciate you, freeman. Um, let's keep going here. Oh shit, no it painkiller. Remote monitoring and management. Sorry.
Speaker 2:We're going to have to fast forward.
Speaker 1:One of these days we'll make enough money to where we can get it without ads. No shit, I have to go back. 13 stars mark. Sounds like he extends his baton again Trying to break a window.
Speaker 4:Get out of the car.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, sir, I'm sorry. No, get out of the car. No, no, no, stop Stop.
Speaker 4:Get out of the car Get out of the car? It is not easy to do?
Speaker 1:No, it is not. You got to aim for the corners and hope you hit it.
Speaker 5:Just right, get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car. Get out of the car.
Speaker 1:Get out of the car.
Speaker 5:Taser, taser, taser. Perfectly okay with using a taser here.
Speaker 1:You could hear him revving the engine. Get down on the ground.
Speaker 5:now Give me your hand bro.
Speaker 1:Important part to point out nobody's throwing strikes. They tried the taser, extracted him and now they're just using joint manipulation. So for the narrative that cops are out here just trying to kill people and trying to fuck people up and all that stuff, like, here's an example. This is something that I'm trying to point out to you guys. Like it's not what this officer tried to do. He used the taser at an appropriate time. This guy was trying to hammer the gas he's obviously wasted off of his ass, so it's a good time for that.
Speaker 5:I am bro, I am bro, I am bro, I am bro.
Speaker 1:Now they're trying to get his hands behind his back, to get him in his cuffs.
Speaker 5:Get a cuff on his right hand.
Speaker 1:Everybody's slowing down, nobody's escalating Are you guys all good.
Speaker 5:Yeah, got another officer checking on officer safety and well-being Good.
Speaker 1:Good, got another officer checking on officer safety and well-being Good. Now you got a cross-dressing scene.
Speaker 4:I got a pistol at least one.
Speaker 1:Guys driving around like that Arms About it. That happens in this video. Uh, we're gonna stop sharing that. We'll go to our.
Speaker 1:That was a pretty open and shut dwi um with a ucw charge that you're probably an awful unlawful carrying of a weapon, yeah so uh sigma said, if the cops didn't try to wake him up in the middle of the road, he never would have taken off and hit the pole. N-q-i-j-k. I get what you're saying, but yeah, I would not have tried to wake him up without another unit there. If we're going to improve that every video we watch, guys, the idea is to improve policing. How can we improve Officers? If you're watching this, this is how you should be taking every call that's got some significance to it.
Speaker 1:I'm not talking about you took a guy to jail for public intoxication or whatever, but something like this. This is significant. You got a gun off of this. You got a dwi. This is a big case. So what can you do better? What can you learn from? In this one, I would have had a car in front of it. I would have had a car behind it and then I would have tried to wake him up. There was no rush. Why did we rush it?
Speaker 1:yeah, things to consider what do you got Jared?
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, I agree. And then the other thing like I had no problem with the tasing at all. The only caveat I would say is he was trying to get away at one point and when you do tase, muscles tense. And if his foot was on the gas, you know, it could have caused the car to lurch, but he wasn't going anywhere in this Yep.
Speaker 1:Yep, that happens a lot. Something to consider, too, is when we're using the taser and you're the one that pulls the trigger on the taser, but somebody else's hands on with that person and they feel that person tense up. Now they're mistaking the neuromuscular incapacitation for resistance.
Speaker 2:Things to consider, so all these, all these videos that we watch to the officers that are watching. Go pay your local frigging scrap yard that's got cars out there to learn how to break a frigging window, right, yeah. I'm sorry, yeah, you know they're. They just don't teach that enough in the academy. The FDO phase is not teaching you unless you get into a situation, and a lot of times you don't have time to act when you need to break that frigging window. It needs to happen now.
Speaker 2:Yep, this whole thing of extending your baton and tapping it. These are this is tempered glass, it's. It's not. It's designed to take impacts like that. Yep, you gotta cross through that damn thing or you gotta get a. You know, spend a few bucks on Amazon, get a window breaker, have that on your frigging bat belt, break that frigging window and get the job done. This whole frigging hitting the window or punching the window. Stop watching the frigging movies.
Speaker 4:Spend the $5 and get the spring loaded punch.
Speaker 1:We're issued them, so they're right on the visor in every patrol car. So Harrison Brock said two cops, one donut. Having the gun is not an issue in itself. You're correct. It's not. However, when you are heavily intoxicated, driving a vehicle and fleeing and causing a felony. Now having a gun is an issue. That's when it does become an issue. Other than that. That is all the videos we have for tonight, guys. So I want we've. I would like to end right at the three hour period. So we're at two 47 right now. If you have any questions for Jared, I want to. I want to kind of open that up right now, because he's in a unique position. He works on a reservation as an officer with three different jurisdictions. I should say what is it? You've got federal state and reservation Tribal. Correct, yep, tribal. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4:Before that I also did. I was four years as a city cop too, so I've got the whole compass.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in that, if you guys have any questions or anything for jared on that, please ask them now, because I, I feel like we didn't even quite get into that, uh, and that was kind of the benefit of having him on here tonight. But, as you can see, the mindset's still the same, the training is still pretty identical to everybody else and, uh, I I just want to open that up and you guys have already put it out there. You thanked him for being on, so I appreciate the audience tonight. I feel like we've really covered some good stuff. Alan said, and then he has the hair. Oh man. Nina said two cops, one donate. Great compilation of videos. Thank you very much, mr Baleful. Jared, are you tribal, federal and state concurrently?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So the way it works is we kind of follow a diagram. So if we're arresting somebody who's a Native American, we charge tribally. If we're arresting somebody who's a Native American, we charge tribally. If they commit against a stateside person, it goes federal. Or if it's just a state person from Arizona traveling through, they get charged by the state. So at any given time I'm enforcing all three.
Speaker 1:Now the interesting part that I want to point out that I only know because of talking to Jared is they don't have the same rules that I have as a police officer in the state of Texas. So, for instance, if I want to set up a camera in a certain place, I may need a warrant, or if I want to pull over a certain car, I may need probable cause or a traffic offense. I don't know how that works on a reservation. How does that work for you, jared?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, most of the time it's the same rules. There are some like there's some tribal laws that differ than state and federal laws, but really it follows closely to how you're used to. The difference is the res I work on is a sovereign nation, so the state of Arizona. You're allowed to carry a gun anywhere you want. It's the wild wild west but not on the sovereign reservation. So if you are not from there and you do not have a permit, you are not legally allowed to carry it there. So that's kind of one of those differences.
Speaker 1:Okay, Sigma asks tribal supersedes federal. Is that true?
Speaker 4:No, they kind of go hand in hand, so tribal can go federal or vice versa, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a severity of the crime and all people involved. Okay, Fair enough. Now what type of crimes are you typically seeing on a reservation?
Speaker 4:I mean, we get the same as everyone else I'd say. We do see a lot of domestic violence, we see a lot of drunk driving. The casinos are a cesspool for stuff. They, you know, you get fraud, prostitution, so it's really it's a lot of the same stuff we just maybe see more of, like the DVs and the drunk driving and stuff like that. And that's also because our city is a destination city, so we have a lot of things that Kind of broke up there.
Speaker 1:You got your DV city, and what was that?
Speaker 4:So we're like a destination city, so there's a lot of attractions to go to things like that.
Speaker 1:Okay. Harrison asks can the FBI make an arrest on a reservation?
Speaker 4:Sure can. Yep, we work with FBI all the time and the Marshalls guys DEA all them.
Speaker 1:Constitutional Country Girl asks Jared what is the biggest crime on Tribal?
Speaker 4:constitutional country girl asked Jared what is the biggest crime on tribal? I don't know if there really is just one like solid crime. I don't. I mean it's. It's the same as everywhere else. Really, Gotcha.
Speaker 1:Mr Billfold said next time, give Jared the first hour, then we will do videos. I think it is a great story to be heard. It is an issue of sovereignty and jurisdiction as to what person's rights are. I'm definitely planning to do an actual podcast with Jared where it's no interaction with the crowd but at the same time, jared and I are friends, so getting him on here is never going to be a problem. It's kind of one of the things I probably took too much advantage of and just or I should say took it for granted, and I need to have him on here more for sure, especially given that he has such a unique ability as a cop. It's not normal at all. It's nothing I've I. It's nothing I've ever had.
Speaker 4:The privilege of doing. I'm fucking weird, just say it.
Speaker 1:It is weird. It is weird but it's cool at the same time, and that's only because I'm a nerd of the criminal justice system, so I love it, but uh, no, um, jared, is there anything that you want to get out there that we haven't talked about yet? As far as what you think people should know about your position, I'd say the biggest.
Speaker 4:I guess one of them is you know, a lot of people think that you do have to be you know of Native American to work on the tribal nation. And there's some are. Ours is not. But I guess the biggest thing is a lot of people think that tribal nations are like slower, behind the times, technology wise things like that. The one I work for is one of the most advanced in the country that I've ever seen. Um, they've great technology. They host the diamond backs there, they have a spring training stadium. So it's not really what you picture in your head of a tribal nation to be. You wouldn't have any idea when you cross our, our, sovereignty line.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Okay, fair enough Banning. You got anything, buddy?
Speaker 2:I'm just curious I'm sure everybody's got a lot of questions for Jared and I know a lot of uh, railroad police. Do you guys have railroads coming through and do you guys? Have issues or joint investigations that go with the railroad police coming through, and do you guys have issues or joint investigations that go with the railroad police coming through there?
Speaker 4:no, we don't have any interstate railroads that go through area. We do have a lot of interstate um freeways and we work with arizona's department of public safety quite a bit um, because there's big drug corridors and things like that right outstanding okay interesting yeah, it was weird because I I went went out where Jared's at before stayed at one of the casinos and it was probably the best room I've ever had in my life.
Speaker 2:That's probably when you saw Frank.
Speaker 1:Right, it was when I saw Frank. Yes, it was, yeah, Frank from a few weeks ago. It was amazing, it was very cool um I see the beauty in the desert, having been out there and hey, jared, what section of it?
Speaker 2:not to interrupt there. Sorry I got a delay. What section of arizona are you in, uh?
Speaker 4:so if we're in scottsdale zip code um, so we're in the very rich, affluent area, um, like I said, you wouldn't have any idea. You crossed over into the reservation until you like realize you're like, I haven't seen a house in a while, like then you'll know oh, so it's probably in between scottsdale and pinell county.
Speaker 2:If I were to guess, yeah okay, yeah, we're in still maricopa county in.
Speaker 4:Technically, our scottsdale's our zip code okay I used to live on camelback mountains.
Speaker 1:While I was asking oh yeah yeah, do you guys uh wear body cams where you're at? Yep, okay. And then uh tim said do you ever get into uh?
Speaker 4:get into it with other cops over jurisdiction um, no, the the biggest thing and most of the agencies that work around us we work very well with. The biggest thing that they know is they actually can't come onto our community only for two reasons One, we invite them, or two, they're in hot pursuit. Otherwise, if they're doing any case, follow-up or search warrants and stuff like that, they have to come through us.
Speaker 1:Okay. Cajun MFN said I wish they would disband the ATF because they love to infringe big time on Second Amendment. They think their rules supersede laws. I don't see a use for them.
Speaker 4:You might get your wish. Trump's canceling people left and right.
Speaker 1:Yes, he is Really, and no offense to the ATF, but I'm like alcohol, legal Tobacco, legal Firearms. Second Amendment why do I need you? Let's see what else we got here. How does that affect search warrants and such? How does that affect search warrants, sir?
Speaker 4:So if it's our own search warrant, it acts just like it normally would if it's a federal or tribal. If it's an outside agency, like say, scotts the mesa wants to come in and do a search warrant, they can, but they have to go through our court system for comedy and we go out there and we either serve it for them, we serve it with them.
Speaker 1:Oh okay, do you guys? I would assume serving it with them is probably the easiest.
Speaker 4:Most of the time, yeah, and even when we serve it with them, it's usually us serving it and they just kind of hang out, gotcha makes sense, so so does that go to the other way?
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm assuredly no it doesn't, investigations going into scottsdale, tucson, phoenix, that type of thing.
Speaker 4:When we leave yeah, when we go off community, we want to serve another jurisdiction. It's, it's our game, it's. It's not a two-way street, it's a one-way street right?
Speaker 1:yeah, I bet it is. Mr bill boltz had agreed get atf out of here. Yeah, I just man. I I'm anti-big government. The less we can have, I feel, the better yeah, I mean there's there.
Speaker 4:There's a need for regulations, like I don't think every gun should be able to have a giggle switch on it, but other than that, you know, true, I yeah man it.
Speaker 1:I don't want to get into the guns weed, because damn, all you got to say is like I'm not four, nine millimeters. But and then you're fucked you know the masses are going to come after you. So, um, nina said, jared, I just sent you a linkedin request. Sir, I would love to learn more about tribal laws. I'm a CJ student fifth year. Finished my CJ courses in the first three years on gen ed. Right now, nina.
Speaker 4:I got you beat.
Speaker 1:It took me eight years to finish a four-year degree. I'm like a doctor for criminal justice.
Speaker 4:I'm super active on LinkedIn, so any of you that have questions feel free to hit me up there. If you want to come out to Scottsdale and come do a ride-along, I'd love to have you.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah, I recommend anybody. If you're pro-cop, if you're anti-cop, please, as long as you don't have a felony on your record, go do a ride-out. You can learn so much.
Speaker 4:I have to say, what I love about your guys's channel is you guys, as followers, push back and make us think yeah. I freaking love that. I know you keep me on my toes the whole time. You disagreed with some stuff I had to say which is your right. I disagreed with some stuff. You had to say which is my right, I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's what we we try to promote here is I'm not going to band anybody. I think I have banned maybe four people in four years. One accidental band, one accidental band. Yes, that's true.
Speaker 2:One was accidental. What was her name? Freaking Wheelchairs, for Warriors too.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know it wasn't even a bad person. I just accidentally right-clicked and I was like, oh, that's not what I meant to do.
Speaker 1:And I left and you canceled after that, oh my God, it was so bad. I was like, oh my God, how do I get her back? It took, it was a process. It took like two weeks to get her back on here. Uh, cause I I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I just learned for anybody that's on our YouTube channel. I just learned how to change the icons. So I changed all the icons to represent, like, if you've been on for a month, month, two months, three months, six months, a year, um, I think the one of the few people, mr billfold, has the red donut right now, um, which shows you know a length of time. So I, I did all of that stuff per year, all's request, um, but I think mr billfold was still petitioning for something different.
Speaker 2:He said it looked like a prophylactic or something hey, fucker, I worked at that.
Speaker 1:I created all of those icons out of ai. It took me a good hour and a half so I was trying to figure out how to do that. You guys know I don't know what the fuck I'm doing on there. So, fuckers, um, yeah, if any guys are ever, if you figure out where I work, which isn't hard to do, um, and you're ever interested in riding, totally would love to have you all hit me up privately. You guys know I can't talk about it on here, but hit me up privately. I recommend ride-alongs for anybody that's anti-cop, because more than likely, if you're anti-cop and you don't like the way things are going, you've never even done a ride-along, which is a travesty. You cannot have a well-balanced opinion if you've never gone around and actually seen the job.
Speaker 2:Hey, there's Mr Billfold's condom right there. Look at that.
Speaker 1:Where's he?
Speaker 2:at Red Hot Condom Looks like a Red Hot.
Speaker 1:Condom. You're welcome. It's your Red Hot condom, sir, it's a lightsaber.
Speaker 2:Come on now, yeah.
Speaker 1:Come on, Show them the dark side. Mr Bill Holden Tim, I want to know if Jared has ever heard of the auditor James Freeman. He's from that area.
Speaker 4:I don't. There's a group that goes around that's pretty YouTube famous. I can't remember their name, but he might be a part of them, but I've never run into him. It sounds like I wouldn't want to either.
Speaker 1:Harrison Brock. Eric, it's easy to find your workplace, it's not hard, it's very funny. We do get some people in the comments. Sometimes they're like, ah, he fucking works here. He's a piece of shit. I'm like, hey, relax, this is the thing that you got to understand, guys. One of the things we're promoting is getting guys like Jared, getting guys like Banning, getting guys like me to come out and talk and do this stuff where you never hear from cops. But it does have the potential to being ruined because we're still working for departments. You can't risk that Now. Banning is a reservist now, but he's got over 20 years, so don't ruin his reserve program. Jared is still currently serving and I am still currently serving. So, please, I get it. We're here, we're trying to help, we're doing something different than any other cops have ever done, Uh, and we've got a lot of cool people on board. So let's, let's keep it going. I think we got a good thing going, jared. You got any closing things, brother.
Speaker 4:No, I appreciate the time. This was fun.
Speaker 1:Love to do it again. And thanks for everyone for the comments and the nice things and the not so nice things. I appreciate it and uh, love it. Sounds good. Everybody else uh, eric, polka home, you damn right, I'm gonna get that bitch pregnant. Uh, love it.
Speaker 1:Uh, nina says anti-cops need to do volunteer programs that will change their minds. Uh, love it. All. Right, guys, everybody, thank you for joining in tonight. I think we had a great show. Please, it's free, like, subscribe, follow everything that we got going on. If you want to help support the show in a more financial and with a monetary way, please feel free to subscribe with the money donations. That does help us. I don't know what the words are called and the smoke wagon's hitting me hard, so I'm going to go in and eat a bunch of junk food after this. But thank you everybody, everybody else. Have a good night. This will be up for our podcast. We'll have this available for you to just listen to. Other than that, everybody, take it. Take it easy. Have a good night. Fuck, I'm drunk. Take. Have a good night. Love you all.
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