29 Years Wrongfully Convicted: Bruce Bryan’s Journey With Cops Who Listen

The episode almost didn’t happen. Our guest fell through, the feed glitched, and then Bruce Bryan hopped on from a car in Midtown and delivered the most human, unflinching conversation we’ve had about wrongful conviction, prison violence, and what real reform could look like. Bruce grew up in Manhattan and Queens during the crack era, got swept into a homicide case he says he didn’t commit, and spent years on Rikers Island before a trial with a traumatized public defender and a prosecutor later tied to misconduct. He survived 29 years inside, studied relentlessly in the law library, mailed more than a thousand legal letters, and ultimately won executive clemency after a law professor built a 499-page case for his humanity and impact.

We dig into the mechanics that break people: lost evidence, overloaded defense, Brady violations, and corrections units where force too often goes unseen. Bruce describes everyday violence behind walls and why the absence of body cameras in prisons keeps the worst behavior unaccountable. Then he points to a model that instantly changes the room: Justice Defenders. In Kenya and Uganda, incarcerated people and officers study the law together, write motions, argue appeals, and reduce violence through shared purpose. It’s radical because it’s simple—teach the law to everyone with skin in the game, and you get outcomes built on dignity and facts.

From there, we talk solutions that scale: mental health treatment for the huge share of people inside with disorders, dyslexia and literacy support, community-focused policing that prizes consistency and local trust, and real accountability for deliberate prosecutorial misconduct. Bruce refuses bitterness, even at a parole board that expected false remorse; he chose truth, and still walked out. His line sticks: “Where there’s life, there’s hope.” That’s not a cliché here—it’s a strategy. 
If this conversation moved you, share it with a friend, leave a review, and hit follow. And if you have connections near Topeka who can support officers shot responding

Peregrine.io: Turn your worst detectives into Sherlock Holmes, head to Peregrine.io tell them Two Cops One Donut sent you or direct message me and I'll get you directly connected and skip the salesmen.

Chapters

• 0:00 Cold Open, Guest No-Show Panic
• 4:20 Kansas Officers Shot And Support Request
• 5:35 Auditor Video Tease And Pivot
• 7:10 Guest Bruce Joins From The Car
• 9:30 Bruce’s Background And NYC Upbringing
• 13:40 Crack Era, Queens Crews, TNT Sweeps
• 17:10 Arrest, Flawed Counsel, Rikers Limbo
• 22:00 Self-Advocacy And Law Library Grind
• 26:20 Justice Defenders Model In Africa
• 34:44 Letters, Persistence, And Clemency Path
• 41:24 The Parole Board And Truth Under Pressure
• 46:24 Corrupt Prosecution And Bad Policing
• 50:14 Corrections Violence And Body Cam Gaps
• 56:24 Alabama Prisons And Organ Theft Claims
• 1:00:44 Reimagining Safety, Mental Health, Poverty
• 1:05:24 Building Trust: Community And Consistency
• 1:09:34 Youth Mentorship And Next Steps
• 1:13:04 Closing Reflections And Resources

Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 0:00

Disclaimer, welcome to Two Cops One Donut Podcast. The views and opinions expressed by guests on the podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of Two Cops One Donut, its host or affiliate. The podcast is intended for entertainment and informational purposes only. We do not endorse any guests' opinions or actions discussed during the show. Any content provided by guests is of their own volition, and listeners are encouraged to form their own opinions. Furthermore, some content is graphic and has harsh language, your discretion advised, and is intended for mature audiences. Two Cops One Donut and its host do not accept any liability for statements or actions taken by guests. Thank you for listening. Got some disappointing news. He tried to make it up until about the last hour. And today, the last I heard from him was around noon, and I have not heard from him since. And I've been trying to get a hold of him. So we got ghosted again. So if you guys want to tune off, I completely understand. I apologize. Um, however, the show's gonna go on. I've already pulled up some videos, I got everything going, and uh we we got stuff we can talk about, right? I mean plan. We've always got shit we can talk about, so um, you know, like uh we can talk about Matt and what he's got going on now that he's you know about to retire. What's that like?

SPEAKER_03: 1:58

Oh my gosh. Stressful. My wife's on me about the financial what are we gonna do? This and that.

SPEAKER_04: 2:04

Right? Oh yeah, yeah, babe. I'm a podcaster, I'm good.

SPEAKER_03: 2:08

Yeah, that's what I said. I said one dollar is gonna make us millions, babe.

SPEAKER_04: 2:11

Yeah, yeah, we got this. Craig said he canceled again. Yep, he canceled again. I can tell you guys this. I'm not asking him again. So is what it is. I'm not gonna judge everybody's got shit that happens. Could it happen two weeks in a row? Yes, it could. If he wants to make that up, he's gonna have to let me know this time because I don't chase waterfalls. You know, TLC taught me, don't go chase waterfalls.

SPEAKER_03: 2:38

You put that song in my head tonight, man. We're fighting.

SPEAKER_04: 2:43

Uh just stick to the rivers and the lakes that you're used to. That's what you do, guys. It's oh go into the comments. I see Mr. Uh Mr. Billfold's on there. Uh he said, tune off, stop smoking crack. I'm a billfold, my guy. Right? I actually have one of his videos queued up that he sent in. He wanted us to do a breakdown on. So uh we will throw that out there. Um, Banning, you said you wanted to uh take a moment out for today because you had some uh some news.

SPEAKER_00: 3:16

Yeah, it looks like I'm glitchy again. Am I glitchy again?

SPEAKER_04: 3:19

You're yep, you're glitchy.

SPEAKER_00: 3:21

Okay, are you gonna I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna disappear and reset this router for the third time and come back in. But really quickly, day before yesterday, there was a Kansas uh highway patrolman, and I believe we'll have to you'll have to double check me on Google and look it up, but I believe three deputies uh 13 to 16 miles of uh south of Topeka, Kansas, uh were shot when responding to uh uh domestic family violence. Houston Gas, uh buddy that we've had on the show several times, who was also shot uh on a domestic violence 10 years ago, reached out to me and said, Hey, let's try to make some connections up there because he obviously wants to to help one of these officers that was shot in the face and is recovering. Uh so if anybody's got any connections in the Topeka, Kansas or south of there, uh can get in touch with Eric or I on LinkedIn, however, uh would love to be able to reach out and um help these folks out the best that we can. Uh with that in mind, thank you for listening to that. I'm gonna get off of this because my face is frozen and I'm gonna try to come back better.

SPEAKER_04: 4:23

All right, brother. And I just got a text from our guest. He's on his way. Oh, cool. So there we go. Um while we're waiting, while we're waiting, I want to make sure, because I already teased about uh Mr. Bill Fold's video and he's my guy. So I want to make sure we take care of him and uh let's let's watch his video that he wanted us to do a little breakdown. Oh, it's 15 fucking minutes though. Okay, we'll get through as much as we can until Benning and our guest arrive. So we're gonna biggie size. You can see that, right, Matt? Yeah. Yep. Okay. All right, let's see, let's just start with this video.

SPEAKER_01: 5:06

I don't looks kind of like it's a First Amendment auditor, so everyone, where we go over your rights and not to exercise them when dealing with public officials, especially law enforcement. Now watch all these police officers lie to this man about every law in order to violate rights, but got completely destroyed without a single word being said. But first, remember to like the video and leave a comment with your thoughts to help us reach more people to make them aware of their rights and help end police misconduct. I want to give credit to whoever this guy is.

SPEAKER_03: 5:34

I've heard his videos before.

SPEAKER_04: 5:35

People's court audit. People's court audit.

SPEAKER_03: 5:38

Yep, he's uh yeah, I heard I recognize his voice I see.

SPEAKER_04: 5:42

Yeah, I recognize the accent. I just um he's not one that I regularly check, but I have seen his stuff. So, um brother man. Now, y'all can say what you want, but this position right here, if you ever wear an outer vest carrier, is so fucking comfortable. People want to talk shit that cops sand like this to be douchey or whatever. Listen, I'm gonna tell you right now, it is I put my hands in. I put my whole hand in there. I just let my weight my the weight hold because it kind of presses, because my hands get cold easy. Yeah, he just pulled from that snow.

SPEAKER_03: 6:31

I've never done that because my arms don't reach that like that.

SPEAKER_04: 6:34

Yeah, well, that makes sense. You got them little T Rex out like this. That's funny. All right, let's keep going.

SPEAKER_02: 6:44

How are you doing today? I'm Officer Hoffman, Jefferson City Police Department. You know I'm contacting you. Oh, he's going silent silent. I can play a silent game, man. I'm trying to contact you. You have every right to record me. I want you to record me. My camera's recording too. Uh so thing is, man.

SPEAKER_04: 7:04

Oh, we're not gonna get through it at all because uh our guest, Bruce, is on. Let's see here. Let's uh stop sharing this. Let's get Bruce. Oh, Bruce is in the car. Look at what's up, Bruce!

SPEAKER_09: 7:19

Sorry, I'm sorry I took a few minutes too long.

SPEAKER_04: 7:23

You're okay. I was talking shit. I goes, he ghosted me, boys.

SPEAKER_09: 7:27

No, no, no, I apologize. I would never do that.

SPEAKER_03: 7:30

He was crying, Bruce. We had we had to hold his head up. He was crying like he cried real tears.

SPEAKER_09: 7:36

I you know, I think it's important, man. It's really, really important that, you know, guys like us come together, right? I mean, from all walks of life, because the reality is we all get a bad rap, whether we're on one side or the other side. We all we oftentimes don't sit and have these real conversations, right? And and that's what allows us to connect, to to recognize and acknowledge the humanity in each of us, you know, from different walks of life, from different perspectives. Sometimes it's really just about a conversation to realize that we all really want the same things in life.

SPEAKER_05: 8:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_09: 8:13

And this this was this is so important to me um to be here with you all, man, because and this is not just a one-time thing. I'm hoping that after this we can continue to communicate and see how we can, you know, share your voice with the world as well as um as well as my voice and how we can just try to create a better environment for both part for both of us.

SPEAKER_04: 8:35

Love it. Amen.

SPEAKER_03: 8:36

Amen. I love that, man.

SPEAKER_04: 8:37

Love it, brother. So um, I'll introduce myself. We've talked on the uh text back and forth on the phone, but uh, I am Eric Levine. I am a current police officer, I'm a sergeant, uh, we'll just say in North Texas, and um been in policing in May. It'll be 20 years. I'm also in the Air Force. Uh, I'm a cop in the Air Force, hence the name of the show, Two Cops, One Donut. I am both a military cop and a municipal cop. So you have that. And then Matt, I'll let you introduce yourself, sir.

SPEAKER_03: 9:05

I'm Matt Thornton. I'm a cop uh right outside of Chicago, been here 21 years, and I also run uh nonprofits, a couple of nonprofits, and that's that's my actual job that I consider. So a couple of nonprofits, yeah, a couple of them, man. We have a blast with them for the kids of my city. We bring them in and just mentor them and and and take care of them and uh show them show them show them the best way.

SPEAKER_09: 9:31

That's beautiful, man.

SPEAKER_03: 9:32

That's bad.

SPEAKER_04: 9:33

And then I'll let it man. I'll let Banning introduce himself, but he's having some connection issues, so he's been bouncing in and out. But Banning, we've got Bruce on. I'll let you introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 9:44

Hey Bruce, first of all, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Sorry about my slow. I'm out in the way back woods, so I got some slow internet here. Uh again, thank you for coming on. Name's Banning Sweatland, uh, 21-year law enforcement officer, four years in the Marine Corps before that. Uh, I've done everything under the roof within law enforcement, and that's why we're I've joined with Eric to try to bring uh the community and law enforcement together to see if we can find some common ground. Uh, but enough about me, man. This this this show uh is about you, and I'm just all inspired to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_09: 10:15

So thank you, brother, and I'm honored to be here to share with you all.

SPEAKER_04: 10:19

Um Bruce, one of the things that um helps us connect with the community and what we try to do on this show is we have it's it's live streamed for a reason. All of these people that are on the chat right now, um they they are very much a part of what we do, why we do, and they will hold our feet to the fire like nobody else because they want policing to get better as well. So do we. Um, and you know, so you'll see comments popping up on the bottom, like Mr. Bill Fold, one of our regulars, he said, Don't drive and stream, Bruce. You might take another ride.

SPEAKER_08: 10:51

Oh no, I'm not driving. I'm not driving. Yeah, give it to Mr. Bill Fold.

SPEAKER_04: 10:57

Yeah, yeah. He said, Bruce, I watched you on JRE. You are a better man than I for holding up against that kind of injustice. So, um, and not everybody here knows your story. So, Bruce, I know you've told your story a million times. I'm not asking you to give the full in-depth version because what I want to get to tonight is where the system failed you, who continued to fail you if they did when you got in inside, and how the fuck do we start fixing it? That's what I want to know. Because our job, what we can do as law enforcement, is we can take your story and we can be like, you know what? Here's where we started seeing some of the screw-ups happen and how we can prevent that from happening again. I can't help what happened to you. It breaks my heart what happened to you, and that's one of the reasons why we wanted you on here. But I want those that may not know your story, I want you to tell that, and then once you get done telling that, then let's we'll start asking you some questions along the way to start you know getting to the root of the real issues that we all have a hand in helping fix.

SPEAKER_09: 12:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 12:03

So uh the floor is yours, sir.

SPEAKER_09: 12:07

Well, my name is Bruce DeBrian. I grew up in New York City. For the early part of my life, I grew up in the Lower East Side, Manhattan. And then, which is where I am now, I'm in Manhattan. I'm in midtown actually, um, at a small event that we had a powwow for stage plays and artists that are involved in the arts, whether it's um writing or acting. And we my family in 78 moved from Queens, moved from Manhattan to Queens. My father, who was from who, you know, he hailed from Antigua, West Indies, where all of my siblings are from. My mother's from Dominica. Uh, my father actually was working in the hotel business in Antigua, and someone saw him and his work ethic and decided that they wanted to offer him an opportunity to come to America. So he came here in 68 and had me in um 69. And for eight years we lived on the Lower East Side. Um after that, Low East Side was tough, but there was a lot of love in the house, so we didn't really understand what poverty was because we had each other. Two-bedroom apartment, six kids, both parents. Um it was tough, but we had each other, and like I said, as a young person, you don't really understand poverty, you just understand love. You know, you understand the love and support that you have at home.

SPEAKER_05: 13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09: 13:42

So in 78, when we moved to Queens, it was the onsort of the crack era. 78, 79, then like by the time I became 12, 13 years old, um crack started coming into the community. You know, and then you started seeing um, you know, you started seeing corn street corners loaded with crack dealers, marijuana dealers, and the whole drug scene started to really develop. It became more of what a of an open market. I guess prior to that, and maybe in the in the 60s and 70s, I had never I had never seen it in the 70s when I was coming up in the Lower East Side, not to that degree. I mean, you saw people hanging out, you saw guys getting hot. When I moved to Queens, you saw it was ubiquitous, it was everywhere. Um, and so you have these influences that kind of pull you in the wrong direction. So during the course of this age, um, you know, you start seeing younger kids having things that you didn't have, and you kind of gravitated and wanted some of that stuff. So I took to the streets. Um, yeah, you know, I've been arrested as a kid, you know, I've been I've been in juvenile systems as a kid. And all of this is what made it easier for me to be arrested and wrongfully convicted, because I already had um, you know, I already had the streets in me at some point at 13, 14 years old. You were already outside and hanging out. Um, that's no justification, but you just understand that when you're when you're outside um and you're involved in the streets or you're hanging out as a young kid, you become a little bit more susceptible to being falsely accused and arrested for a crime. So, fast forward to you know to the mid-80s, um, that was the crack boom. And as you all know from Texas, um I'm sure Dallas and Houston, there was, you know, I'm sure they had uh drug markets that were heavy out there as well, as well as in Austin, um, Texas. And you saw it so much in New York City, especially in Queens. Queens was kind of known for not just having individual drug dealers. Queens was more known for like drug crews, what they would say were gangs now. Back then they called them crews. So you would see, you know, 20-man crews and everybody's hustling and housing projects and different things like that, or hustling on blocks. So it became a big, big thing, right? It became huge in Queens. I think TNT, the tactical narcotics team, was created around 19, maybe 1988. Around that time, maybe a little bit before then. After, I think after the death of um Edward Byrne, which was a young rookie cop that was that was essentially uh uh lost his life during the drug epidemic in Queens. Um so around that time it started getting really crazy, and then you started seeing entire blocks being arrested and being swept by law enforcement. So if you were buying a bag of marijuana and they and and TNT was doing a sweep during that time, everybody went to jail, including the lady in the supermarket, if she looked like she was holding a joint. That's just how it was in New York City. I don't know how it was in um in other states, but in New York City, particularly in Queens, um, that's exactly how it was. This would happen on a daily basis. So in 1993, it was still a lot of crack, still cocaine, a lot of heroin, is when a young person was killed by a stray bullet, and I was subsequently charged for a murder that I didn't commit because they made it seem like it was a drug crew. And one of the major, major um flaws with my case was, you know, is is is my attorney. I had an attorney that had been, um, and this is gonna sound crazy. I had an attorney by the name of Reginald Tao, and I'll say his name, who had been slashed by his previous client. He was a court-appointed attorney. And he had been slashed in his face by a previous um client that he represented. And as a result of that, he was he was see he was receiving psychiatric treatment. I was the very next client that he had. Oh the very next client. And he was suffering from post-traumatic stress. Um, he admitted at a hearing in which he sued New York City. He sued the city because he was actually slashed while at work, while in what we call the bullpins. I don't know if you call them that in Texas, but the bullpins are like the court pens where everybody's going to court. And so in those back cells where you may um be able to see your attorney for some little bit of privacy before you go into the courtroom, he went to see a client back there. And he was, and the client couldn't get rid of him through the courts because he kept asking to get rid of him. So he felt the best way to get rid of him, I assume, was to slash him and it was attack him and slash him. So he was flashed and attacked. As a result of that, he sued the city. But he had what they call a 58 C hearing. And at the 58 C hearing, he openly said, I cannot relate to clients in the same way. And it's difficult for me to, I'm unable to create a defense because I'm unable to communicate adequately with my clients because of the PTSD. I guess he felt fearful of that incident, you know, shocked him. No one expects to be an attorney, you go to see a client and they attack you and slash you. You know what I mean? Um, so I happened to be his next guy, and that um that threw everything for Lou because this guy wouldn't, he I mean, he literally wouldn't come see me, he wouldn't communicate with me. He didn't have an in I don't I I think I'm the only guy in New York that had a homicide that didn't have an investigator. Right? Okay, I mean everybody that's charged with a homicide, your lawyer has an investigator. This guy had no investigator. He just, it's like he was too in shock to actually build the defense and sit and communicate with me. Never came to see me, never sat down and went over the case thoroughly. He would, for 13 months, I'm on Rikers Island. The first 13 months on Rikers Island, which was pure hell at the time, it was the the onslaught, it was the beginning of the of the gangs really becoming very popular. The Latin Kings, the Bloods, the Crips becoming really popular on Rikers Island. And Rikers Island is the biggest penile colony, probably in the state. It had over 20,000 people there. And violence was at an all-time high. And um for 13 months I didn't see a judge. And this guy wouldn't tell me anything.

SPEAKER_04: 20:50

So you're stuck in there for 13 months.

SPEAKER_09: 20:52

Oh, I was stuck there for 30 months, but for the first 13 I couldn't see a lawyer.

unknown: 20:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_09: 21:01

I literally couldn't see would come to the bullpen and say, You're not seeing a judge today, I'll talk to you some other time. I would say, Listen, I need to talk to you about my case, and he would walk away and say, Well, we'll talk some other time. It didn't register in my mind that the slash on his face was similar to the one that I wounded up receiving years later in prison, or similar to the ones that you see a lot of guys on Rikers Island with. It didn't register to me. I'm the farthest thing from my mind is that my attorney was slashed. Right? You think that that happens only to the guys in jail. I see the long scar, because he may be as received about 80 stitches. So I'm I'm looking at him and I'm like, I'm paying the scar, no mine. And it's really about how you're gonna communicate with me, how you're gonna help me get around this case. How you gonna contact my girlfriend at the time? How you gonna contact the cab driver? How you gonna contact the necessary people? How you gonna get the logbook from the cab stand? You know, the different things that would support my case. And this guy didn't do anything, he didn't do anything for 30 months until I was uh subsequently convicted of uh murder and sentenced to 37 and a half to life.

SPEAKER_03: 22:21

Damn.

SPEAKER_09: 22:22

So one of the things I learned, you know, it was that I couldn't change my circumstances right away, so I had to change myself. And that began my journey of personal development and self-development and introspection and in and digging deep into trying to find out why and how I got into this place to begin with. Yeah, um, so that was the beginning of my journey. Okay, that was and because the journey for me was more internal than um than external.

SPEAKER_04: 23:02

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_09: 23:02

More internal because once you realize that you can't change your environment, you you realize that you have to change yourself.

SPEAKER_04: 23:10

So you get in, you get convicted, and you start doing the self-improvement, and then the next thing is getting educated enough to help on your own defense.

SPEAKER_09: 23:24

Yeah, to help on my own defense, absolutely, because nobody else is gonna help me.

SPEAKER_04: 23:30

Right. This is interesting, by the way. I feel like we're in the big city. What's going on?

SPEAKER_09: 23:37

I mean, the law library.

SPEAKER_08: 23:40

Don't let me go.

SPEAKER_09: 23:41

The law library was important to me. I need an arm. Okay. I'm helping my old timer get in the car.

SPEAKER_04: 23:48

Oh, no worries. This is this is gold, baby. I love it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09: 23:57

So I'm just helping my old timer get in. Okay. No, don't close this yet because I gotta put the wheelchair in the fine.

SPEAKER_04: 24:05

Do you want to do you want to handle your stuff and jump back on?

SPEAKER_09: 24:08

No, you can stay. You can stay. I'm just putting them in the car. My girls go drop. Come on, put you in the front.

SPEAKER_04: 24:15

Love it. Yeah. Love it. I love it too. This is live. No. I love it. I'm going to the comments. One of the biggest issues in the system is the public defender's office, the lack of budget they have, and the size of caseloads the attorneys have.

SPEAKER_08: 24:34

Can you get past that water? I can't get in with the water there. You're coming a little faster. She's gonna bring it closer because she says she does we don't want your water to touch you. So he said, Don't worry about the water.

SPEAKER_06: 24:48

You can help him. He can't get it back.

SPEAKER_04: 24:51

This is awesome. I love it. Who's who's holding us? Ma'am?

SPEAKER_06: 24:58

Yes. Ma'am.

SPEAKER_04: 24:59

Hi, and camera.

SPEAKER_06: 25:01

Oh, it's Alison Fla. Hi. What's up, lady? How's it going?

SPEAKER_04: 25:06

I'm good. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_06: 25:08

Um, I'm good. I don't know the context, but I can tell it's iconic. If Bruce Black is there, I can tell it's good.

SPEAKER_04: 25:15

We're having a good time. We're uh we're hearing Bruce's story. And you are live to hundreds of thousands of people right now.

SPEAKER_06: 25:24

Oh, that is good to know.

SPEAKER_04: 25:26

I mean, it would be hundreds of thousands of people. It would be hundreds of thousands if we were Joe Rogan, but we're not Joe Rogan. So you got like you got tens of 20.

SPEAKER_06: 25:37

Incredible. Well, I'm sure Bruce, oh, please don't close your finger in there. Um, I don't know if Bruce like told you he's the best dressed person in the entire world. Is he no one has better fashion?

SPEAKER_04: 25:53

So what's the first one?

SPEAKER_06: 25:54

And he was actually his nickname in prison, it was actually fashion. I don't know if that's a secret. I'm telling hundreds of thousands of people.

SPEAKER_04: 26:00

Oh fashion, huh?

SPEAKER_06: 26:04

Yes, he always has a full outfit. He's always rocking a fit.

SPEAKER_04: 26:10

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_06: 26:13

To the function.

SPEAKER_04: 26:15

That could be a dictionary. In Texas, anyway.

SPEAKER_06: 26:21

But we really are live streaming.

SPEAKER_04: 26:23

We are so live streaming.

SPEAKER_06: 26:24

So lady should not tell me this, Bruce.

SPEAKER_04: 26:30

So what is your what what is your function out there, ma'am?

SPEAKER_06: 26:35

What is my function at the function? I'm a friend of Bruce. Okay. Um, I uh teach uh uh art and self-care workshops to uh with incarcerated uh women, and so I'm very passionate about um uh human rights for the incarcerated, and Bruce is just as you uh probably have already learned, kind of a stunning example of um grace.

SPEAKER_04: 26:56

Lovely for good. She needs to be our next guest. She needs to guess I love it.

SPEAKER_09: 27:10

It sounds like you need to be the next guest.

SPEAKER_04: 27:14

Yes, I got a lot to say. I'm down. I'm down. Um so we had a pretty good question here um from one of our guys. It said, uh, but are we supposed to just go into cuffs willingly and take a ride and hope that we get justice? Would Bruce have been right to fight the cops who wrongfully arrested him?

SPEAKER_09: 27:37

Uh absolutely not, because they shoot uh up here in New York City. So, so you you know, unless you want to lose your life. Wherever there's life, there's hope. So, especially when you know deep inside that you're actually innocent, you in your mind, your processing is saying that I'll be out of here shortly. Yeah, you know it's gonna take 20 to 20, 29 calendars later, but you all in your mind it's like I'll be out of here. So why would I fight physically fight the cops when I know that there's always a potential to lose my life in that in that fight?

SPEAKER_04: 28:16

Yeah, yeah. Uh Jeff Parrish said, Bruce, love you, loving on your fam and helping them. So you're getting some love. Yeah. If there's what what was it? If there's life, there's hope.

SPEAKER_09: 28:30

Wherever there's life, there's hope.

SPEAKER_03: 28:31

I like that. Yeah, Bruce has a quote for everyone.

SPEAKER_04: 28:41

I was gonna say, I think we're gonna use that one. I like that. Where there's life, there's hope.

SPEAKER_06: 28:46

What were you saying to me on the phone this morning? You just kept saying um punctuality is presumed this morning. Punctuality is presumed. Yes, yes. That was an Alan original.

SPEAKER_04: 29:01

I like it. Yep. Um, yeah, and Andy Fletcher said the question isn't whether it's right or whether it's smart, but is it right?

SPEAKER_09: 29:11

It's I think I think there's no perfect system, right? Um, of course we can do better, but when you learn, like when you get a little more perspective is when you begin to travel to different systems, right? Yeah. So I go to Kenya and Uganda and I see 175 people in the cell that that oftentimes don't see lawyers for sometimes a decade. So, you know, you say, well, uh well, our system is bad, but my God, um you know, what kind of system is this?

SPEAKER_05: 32:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09: 32:42

Right? Which is um a throwback to uh you know British colonialism in Kenya. You still see prisons like committee, where the uh the mile miles were. were hung and you see people there that are sentenced to death for stealing a cell phone or for stealing a mango off of a tree and because they use the knife to cut the vine is considered to be an armed robbery. And so you see young women sentenced to death for for things like that. You begin to gain perspective and say, well, you know, I was in the cell by myself for 29 years. Not 170 people, not 150 people. You know, it's a huge difference. So things, I still like to say things can be a lot worse.

SPEAKER_04: 33:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09: 33:30

Right? They could be a lot worse.

SPEAKER_04: 33:33

Would you consider yourself an optimistic person?

SPEAKER_09: 33:36

Absolutely. More than that.

SPEAKER_04: 33:40

It sounds like you and I are you and I are going to get along famously because I am uh I am optimistic to my own detriment. So um I get I get a lot of shit from our followers because they think I've got the rose colored glasses about fixing police work. Where I'm just like look somebody's got to try. If I'm not doing it who's going to do it so exactly that's where this little coalition of uh cops that you see on here that's this is our goal.

SPEAKER_09: 34:11

I think if you have to be able to reimagine what it can be. Yeah right um and and again there's no perfect system but it can always be better. We can always do more to make it better because as I say if you want more you got to be more but we become more to the system and to the people um there's always the potential to change and make things better. Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 34:35

Alan you wanted to say something no I just want to write down all your quotes love it.

SPEAKER_04: 34:43

And Ruth I had a question.

SPEAKER_03: 34:45

Yes how how long till you were you said 30 months and then you got sentenced how long Raggers Island keep you on there forever man how how long till you were finally able to like be heard like tell somebody like a courtroom or somebody like about the tragic the tragedy I didn't see a judge till after about 14 months.

SPEAKER_09: 35:06

So I would wake up at least once maybe sometimes twice a month 430 in the morning get ready for court because that's what time the bus comes get you on Rikers Island for court. 435 in the morning you sit in the bullpen's and they give you what they call bullpen therapy for the next 10 hours you're eating a bologna cheese sandwich if you you know if you decide if you can actually consume that right or you are eating a peanut butter and jelly with some really hard thick peanut butter in there too and you're waiting to see a judge and then the judge nine times out of ten says you gotta you gotta uh you know you got adjourned. But you don't you don't go before the judge your lawyer just says in the back boyfriend you got adjourned I'll see you next week that's the most conversation I would receive from my attorney.

SPEAKER_04: 35:57

You had kind of touched on it earlier that you had gone to Uganda and you looking at the um the inmates and stuff like that over there um and that's a program right Justice Defenders Justice Defenders is a nonprofit organization that brings higher legal education and training to incarcerated men and women in 22 prisons in Kenya and Uganda.

SPEAKER_09: 36:22

I've got their because they actually they don't have access to public defenders like that unless you have a a death penalty case as we do here in the United States.

SPEAKER_04: 36:33

Okay I've got their website pulled up right now just so people can check them out it's justice dash defenders dot org um yes and I'm sharing the web page right now and and you know what's fascinating is that what's fascinating is that they um become very good legal advocates paralegals and earning their law degrees through the University of London.

SPEAKER_09: 37:00

Not only are they good but they're helping the officers learn with them side by side. Oh really and that's the model that we yes so the officers and the incarcerated people are provided with free legal education and they have one requirement to help free someone else inside the prison. Yeah so you got correction officers in these prisons that file motions and represent some of the very same people that they supervise. Oh man and there's no organization on the planet that's doing that other than that no there's not I never heard anything like that. But it's a great way for you to be game one for to see the humanity and those that are incarcerated and to work side by side with them right yeah so that allows you to have some level of solidarity with the officers and the incarcerated people. So now you're building a community because you see violence dissipate literally if I got an officer that's helping me earn my freedom that's helping me understand the law I don't have an issue with him I that's that's that becomes my that becomes my conversation yeah yeah let another inmate try to fuck with him exactly yeah and when you go when you go inside these prisons over there it's completely different it's not an adversarial relationship between the officers and the incarcerated people for several reasons one is because of the legal training but also you you gotta imagine that many of them are probably from the same tribes so they all look the same right um when you I saw one um I saw one Asian lady one Chinese lady in the entire prison called Langata which is the women's prison that has about 700 women 650 to 700 women in there um but they're all uh African women and they're learning the law they're studying the law a group of them about 25-30 of them and they take cases from their peers inside and they're winning appeals and getting them back in court getting time cuts getting them home bringing up mitigating circumstances many of them were subject to domestic violence and you know uh decided to respond after crying out for years and they wind up killing their husbands or killing their their spouse yeah and they're sentenced to death when these lawyers when these uh officers who are lawyers now become began representing them they actually get them time cuts some of them get home um it's just it's unbelievable the work that you see being done and I imagine it's because they're not going to school just to be a lawyer they're going to school to fight for their life. Yeah it's a big difference. So I'm not just gonna study the law I'm gonna eat sleep and breathe the law if that's what it takes for me to get out of here.

SPEAKER_04: 39:59

Now I I want to get to some of the I want to know how the injustices happened but what I really want to know is what was the battle like for an you know for an incarcerated person to try to get up in front of people and say I've studied the law now you need to listen to me how did you get them to listen because that's the way that I equate that is when somebody gets on the internet and they're like well I you know I know the law because I Googled something. You know like when you hear it on the internet you never really quite take it that serious because you're like well where'd you study law oh I studied on the internet.

SPEAKER_09: 40:40

You mean like Kim Kardashian failing the ball for about the sixth time?

SPEAKER_04: 40:45

Right.

SPEAKER_09: 40:46

Yeah exactly you know she she probably studies the law but she doesn't really have have to because you're a billionaire so I study this leisurely this is like you know I do this in pastime but when you take a guy like me um I'm fighting for my life and for my freedom and to prove my innocence. So my take on it is a little different. But not only that for me it was about writing everybody and their mother so I will in New York State you get five free legal letters every week you're allowed you're allowed to mail five letters home five letters that not home but to a law firm or to a legal entity for free every week. No so every week I use my five free letters um to write law firms to write lawyers I wound up writing well over 1000 letters holy shit I would see lawyers on TV and reach out to them for assistance I would see um you know read about lawyers in the New York Times or the New York Post or the Daily News or sometimes I just get the lawyer's diary and I pick 10 names and these would be the 10 lawyers that I write for the next two weeks.

SPEAKER_04: 42:05

So when you're writing them are you giving them legal arguments that you've developed or are you just telling them your story?

SPEAKER_09: 42:11

I'm g I'm telling my story with a little with some legal knowledge that I develop with where I feel my case or my injustice happened. And I'm explaining to them in legal jargon that they understand.

SPEAKER_05: 42:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_09: 42:27

Right? That they can say well all right let me give this guy a shot and the reality is a lot of these lawyers are so overwhelmed with cases particularly um public defenders that they don't give adequate time to a case because they're not you know um they're human and they it's the reality is when you got 50 cases and you're one person that's a lot and you got each one of those each person's case is important to them yeah yeah right so everybody's cases isn't more important to them than it is to anyone else you have to really really pound the pavement you got to really pound the pavement you can't you gotta be persistent persistence overcomes resistance right those water drops those water drops are what are what carve out uh things inside of stones inside of bricks that persistent and consistent drops of water you can begin to see a crack you can begin to make a dent so persistence overcomes resistance and you just don't stop yeah you gotta be relentless in your own advocacy and the hardest part the hardest part for a person that's incarcerated is learning how to become their own advocate because most 99% of the people don't know how to do that and you have to you got to figure it out you got to figure out how to advocate for yourself because your voice matters right it's just you gotta know that first you have to be the first person to notice that my voice is important.

SPEAKER_04: 44:07

Yeah and you have to stand on that one of the questions from one of our uh audience members said um Bruce which organization advocated for your release I know the system as we know it did not listen to you regardless of what you had to say not everyone gets innocence project help you're right because I think the innocence project might take seven years to write you back sometimes um literally that's not even an exaggeration because you know they represent clients across the country I got a guy by the name of law professor Steve Zeitman who works at uh Cooney School of Law I sent them some work that I had done in prison and a couple of years later he wrote me back and asked me have I ever considered pursuing clemency?

SPEAKER_09: 45:03

Now at this time no one has gotten clemency in New York State so that's not even a thing like I didn't even respond to his letter because it made no sense to me like I, you know no one's getting clemency. You know he saw my work that I sent him years before about work release and he responded to that and said I saw your work I liked it. I held it for uh for years I've had it sitting in my jury I'm getting ready to start um a clemency project and start on executive clemency through the governor um and I like your work and I just you know I look I see some of the work you've been doing in prison and I want to know if you ever considered pursuing clemency. If so contact me I didn't write him back for months a guy said to me hey man um Steve Zeitman is starting to uh starting to really take take clemency cases and he's talking about coming in there and I said yeah that guy wrote me to go and they said you wrote him back I said no ain't nobody getting clemency man they don't give out clemency in New York when you ever heard of somebody getting a time cut that's convicted for murder whether you're innocent or guilty they don't it just doesn't happen like that. So I brushed it off. Then he scheduled an appointment to come inside the prison and guys were saying this law professor's coming in and he's coming in to talk about clemency. And he came in and I sat in the back and I still didn't pay him much of mine. But he came in with a bunch of students about before and before he left I walked over to him and I introduced myself and I said you wrote me I'm Bush Brown and he said yeah well you know when you're gonna write me back you need to write me back and I started talking to him and I introduced him to two guys one guy had um a hundred a hundred years another guy had life without parole and I decided that I would um write him back in that moment you know and so I wrote him back and he took on my case and he began doing what you know this extensive this deep dive into not just my case but who I was you know my family where did I come from how did I end up where I end up how what was life like for me growing up like every single thing he like he dotted his I's and he crossed his T's on Bruce Bryan right and he really wanted to know who I was and this you know the what he was developing you know it covered every aspect of a person he wanted to represent and he began to see look this guy's doing serious work in here and I believe in his innocence so his his reason for going so deep one is because you have to but he admired the work that I was doing inside of prison. You know what I mean? Yeah and he admired me and he liked me as a person. And so we begin to bond and he began to continuously go see my mother sit with my family um go through every program every certificate that I ever had in prison every organization that I was a part of or started while I was in prison every single thing um community members that knew me people that I was working with from prison that I met while I was in prison or like a friend of mine she has an organization that caters to children of incarcerated parents and I began working with her from the inception of her organization. So he would go to her and say well you know what do you think of him? Tell us about him my brothers and sisters tell us about him. The community the store owners tell us about this guy um and he developed this elaborate 499 page packet not just talking about who I was today in comparison to the young guy that may have been involved in the street as a young person but he began to you know he he documented my journey for the past at the time I I had about 25 years in because it took me four years to actually four or five years to actually get executive clemency. So he documented everything I had done in the prison um even as going as far as contacting the superintendent what some people in some states call wardens what is this guy doing in here? He told that I had graduated from college twice I graduated from um uh different programs that were you know master's master's level even though I didn't get a master's degree I got my bachelor's I got my associates so he began looking at all of this and and everything that I was doing and he decided that he how important it was to humanize right and to to let the world see that this you know these people that are inside are better than the worst thing they've ever done. And I think that is what really um made eventually made my executive emission package successful because I had been overlooked since 2018 2019 to get about it he did he also did a mitigating video on me. So they would interview me on the video for hours inside the prison interview my mother my family the community all on video and they would edit it down to less than 10 minutes. So people it's it's one thing to to hear about hear about a person it's another to see him on camera on film speaking and sharing his story. And every year from 2018 until the ending Christmas 2022 I was overlooked. I wasn't denied but I was overlooked right so that what I mean by that is they would submit 10 guys for executive clemency and eight of them would get it and I wouldn't be one of them right at the time governor Cuomo was the governor of New York State and he had done before he left out was pushed out of office he had released a few dozen people and each time I was in the race but I was overlooked gotcha yeah it wasn't until Christmas 2022 that Governor Kathy Hokel decided to grant me executive clemency. And I was actually in the gym working out and I I remember the day like it was yesterday I was in the gym lifting weights and they called the officers called me and said you got to go see your counselor I said I'm working out I'm not gonna see no counselor now I don't have you know what am I gonna see a counselor for and he said all right so I continued to work out and he got another call and said it's a mandatory he has to come up now. So the officer came to me and said you gotta go uh I'll let you back in the gym when you finish but uh Brian you gotta go uh you know you gotta go straight you ain't you don't even gotta go to your cell and change your clothes just go straight and see the counselor we're gonna have an escort waiting there for you up front so I said all right I was a little frustrated because I wanted to use the phone so I go to my counselor's office and I'm standing up her name was Miss Mimes and she says have a seat Mr. Bryan I said what what do you call me for? I said I was working out and I wanted to use the phone you know I didn't call my family all day and you know we don't have access we don't have gym tonight so I won't be able to call and she said Mr. Brian have a seat and I said won't you just talk tell me what you want me she said Mr. Brian have a seat and I sat down and she turned on her computer I couldn't see the screen and she went to her computer and she said she began reading the order and she got to the end that said for Governor Kathy Hoke Governor of New York State um I have been uh uh um requested to call you down here and to inform you that you just received executive clemency um I damn near fell out the chair I almost fell out the chair you know um tears came out of nowhere and I had to really hold my balance and didn't want to leave and she said you can leave now Mr. Prime and I said no no no you ain't just gonna tell me that tell me to walk out walk out of here now you got to explain to me like are you sure is this are you sick I'm I is it me you know you want to be sure that it's you and I'm like oh my god I'm thinking in my mind okay if this is really me I'm not gonna tell nobody when I get back to the block everybody gonna ask me yo why they call you out the gym what's that about because you know they call you out the gym and you gotta go somewhere guys might think you're snitching who is he snitching for who is he going to talk to he's snitching who he what they what they call him for you know so I'm like in my mind I'm saying what the hell am I gonna I'm not telling nobody that shit I'm giving me I got executive clemency and I'm giving me a walk out the door in a couple months after having a life sentence and everybody else around me got life sentences um you know I'm gonna keep that close to my chest you know maybe down the line I might tell a person you know back to the I got and I said officer I need to use the phone in the gym so he said go go go ahead and I went back down and got on the phone and called my sister and told her whatever you do don't tell mommy and why did I do that? That's like impossible right that's that's impossible not to tell my mother that yeah so man I went back to the cell man and I um I just sat there and guys like yo what happened man I said nah it was like a legal call my lawyer called up they needed me you know I had a legal call I forgot I had a legal call scheduled and I had to go up there and talk to my lawyer on the phone man and I sat in that cell didn't go out for the rest of the day and it was almost like the cell was spinning and I sat there and I cried then I prayed cried some more prayed some more thank God some more but I'm nervous because I'm saying are they gonna come back to the cell and say that was a mistake Mr. Bryan we didn't mean to tell you that. Right that night I got legal mail that had a seal on it had the governor's seal on it telling me that I was granted executive clemency and I would be going to the earliest parole board um that was like the greatest feeling in the world the second greatest feeling next to actually walking out the door four months when it was real that was like man when it was real how long was that four months for you that was when it was real man you know uh shit that was the longest the longest four months of my life man that was the longest four months of my life real long really the yeah the longest time was the last seven days oh man I could not imagine the last seven days because you're not sleeping you're not sleeping and you're thinking about what am I gonna do what's gonna be my first meal I already know you know what I've been yearning for um does anybody in the jail know my family they don't find out till when I walk to that parole board months later and they're like they called you for the board I said that's what they called me for. You know what I mean? And you know it's when you go to the parole board in New York State I don't know if it's you have to in order to even be considered to be released you have to admit guilt and admit remorse. So you know my lawyer was a little nervous because he was like you know you always said that you would never admit guilt for something that you didn't do. And I said and that still stands and he said well what you gonna say when you go in there I said I'm gonna tell them I'm gonna speak my truth um and let them know that I'm prepared to die before I lie on myself and say that I murdered someone I'm prepared to die in prison. And verbatim is what I told the pro boy they peppered me with question after question after question. The final question was from a female Miss Commissioner Samuels I'll never forget it she said well I went through your file and you've actually been saying this since you've been arrested the earliest time of your case she said well now after all these years that you're finally getting an opportunity to be released how does that make you feel all this time you've been crying out and finally now they want to give you a chance to go home and I got the sense instantly and I told my girl this a while ago instantly I got the sense that she wanted to see if I was bitter did I tell you that she wanted to see if I was bitter you hear me and so I said well um you know it's been a long journey it's been a hard journey I lost my father in 2017 I had to go to his go see his body with chains around my waist chains around my ankles chains around my wrist um I said I still got my mother I said but you know um I I managed to not serve time but to have time serve me and so therefore I'm not bitter I'm better I'm better than I was and that was the final answer and she looked at me and she said thank you good luck Mr. Bryan Damn and that was it days later I got the paper in the mail saying you will be you have been granted release you're going home man all while maintaining your innocence all while maintaining innocence anybody anybody in um that's been incarcerated in New York and probably in any state will tell you if you don't go in there and say I'm sorry for what I've done I admit guilt I admit remorse in fact we just watched a documentary called Beyond the Bars documentary we just did the screening on it on Saturday and guys in that documentary I know them all from Sing Sing which is one of the uh notorious maximum security prisons in New York State one of the oldest it's about 200 years old and the guys in there were going to the parole board expressing remorse saying they're sorry and they were hit with two years they go back again they hit with another two years over and over again and they're admitting remorse they're doing what's required of them I didn't admit remorse or admit any guilt and I made it so I think that for me it was a blessing from God but also that I think the governor got a sense that you know my prosecutor wounded up going to prison you know I I had I had I had a former and you can look him up former Queen's prosecutor John Scarper S-C-A-R-P-A. John Skopper is known for misconduct so he was pushed out the DA's office and became a defense attorney but he continued in his misconduct and he was arrested and sentenced to 30 months by the feds for trying to bribe witnesses to say what he wanted them to say. And this is the guy that got me 37 and a half to life damn so that's the part of the system that's broken in that prosecutors see how easy you pull it up in that prosecutors actually have immunity so a prosecutor can lock up you know uh uh uh two cops one donut and Bruce Bryan and lock us up and say we were conspiring on a live stream to commit crime and lock us up charge us and convict us and two years from now they say man that that prosecutor lied he set them guys up guess what we get released but nothing happens to him nothing happens to him and you know it happens on the in the prosecutorial level and it happens with bad Cops. Yeah. Right? When you look at, I don't know if you're familiar, but there's one cop. Just one example I like to give you. And there are many. But the one example I like to give you is Lewis Scarcella. Are you familiar with that name? You are?

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:14

Yeah, I'm trying to remember.

SPEAKER_09: 1:03:16

Lewis Scarsella is one of the top homicide detectives in Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:21

Yeah, didn't he have like 27 convictions that they think were?

SPEAKER_09: 1:03:26

He already 27 convictions were already overturned.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:30

Yeah, that's what it was. 27 were overturned, but he's got a slew more.

SPEAKER_09: 1:03:34

About 350 he was responsible for.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:37

Was Derek Hamilton one of his cases?

SPEAKER_09: 1:03:40

Derek Hamilton absolutely was one of his cases.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:43

Yes, that's why I know who he is. I I interviewed Derek.

SPEAKER_09: 1:03:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_09: 1:03:49

Yes. And it's amazing because one officer single-handedly sent us back into slavery. He was responsible for over 400 years of wrongful incarceration. One cop.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09: 1:04:04

Not two, one.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04:06

So in your case, was it was it corrupt police? Was it corrupt prosecution? Was it what was it that where did we start fucking up so we can start fixing it?

SPEAKER_09: 1:04:19

I had I had the you know, I had the whole trifecta. Right? Steven Farinello from the 103rd precinct. Shell cases disappeared from the crime scene, number one. But then I had an attorney who, you know, who absolutely did nothing to defend me. I had a I had a uh a public defender, Reginald Town, who did absolutely nothing. And it's why I make it my business to say his name, right, when I'm interviewed, because of the horrific job that he did in representing me, and knowing that he was seeing psychiatrists while he was representing me, right? He was seeing uh uh a psychiatrist here in Manhattan, Dr. Henry McCurtis, while he was representing me. And then I had John Scarpa as the DA.

SPEAKER_07: 1:05:18

Wow.

SPEAKER_09: 1:05:19

And John Scarpa, he was he's responsible for people versus Nathan May, that conviction was overturned. People versus Gary Steadman, that conviction was overturned, for prosecutorial misconduct and for withholding Brady material, which is exculpatory evidence, right? Or in some cases, he gives a secret deal to someone who may be a substance abuse user in exchange for their testimony against me, which is very common. It's common practice for John Scott. So I mean, when you talk about qualified immunity for a prosecutor and then the ability to have so much power, right? Think of it like this a public defender may get$50,$75 an hour. A prosecutor essentially has more power than the judge. They have the they represent the people.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09: 1:06:21

Right? They have support from the people and can almost do and say almost anything. So if prosecutors were held accountable for deliberate misconduct, I think it would make it.

SPEAKER_07: 1:06:34

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_09: 1:06:35

Right? Do you think John Scarper ever thought that he would get caught? Right? You think that was the first time he did it when he when he got 30 months? Absolutely not. Do you know how many lawsuits he has against him right now? At least 10.

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:51

And I bet I bet the justification in his own head was they're criminals. So it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_09: 1:06:59

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's the same way Louis Costello felt. Oh, they're criminals, they're in the streets anyway.

SPEAKER_04: 1:07:05

Which is fucked up. Because when the streets raise you, it is. That I mean, I I've I've talked to I I know a million people like that where they didn't have the best guy. Okay, so let me ask you this, Brian, uh, Bruce. Um, looking back in your 12, 13, 14 years old, what would have helped you stay out of street life?

SPEAKER_09: 1:07:32

I think for me, uh understanding, beginning to understand poverty and also seeing the influences that were around us at the time in Queens from the streets had a huge impact, right? Um, and again, I I you know I really believe that, you know, if you get caught for selling marijuana, then guess what? Like they say, marijuana's a gateway drug. That's like a gateway for the system to say, okay, we can we can snatch him up and throw him away because he's involved.

SPEAKER_04: 1:08:09

That's a that's a smart perspective. Yeah, it's not a gateway drug free, it's a gateway to get put in the system.

SPEAKER_09: 1:08:17

It's a gateway to get put in.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:19

Marijuana's been a the catalyst that ruined so many lives, an uncountable amount of lives. Yeah. Just because it's a symbol of rest and it's a way to go after people.

SPEAKER_04: 1:08:28

Yeah. When when we all know that what I'm drinking right here is probably the uh single-handedly the most biggest reason for people to do some demonic shit. Not weed.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:40

Yeah. And the the marijuana rest is so disproportionate in certain communities, and it's it's your point exactly. I agree wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:50

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_09: 1:08:51

Um, but I also think that as a as a young person, um you know, I got I got six siblings. At the time I had five siblings. I think for me, I knew I knew better than the streets because I had my mother and my father there. Right? So I watched my mother and father go to work. I never watched them drink, I never watched them smoke, they never did any of that. Um so there's a level of responsibility that I take, even as a teenager, for making bad choices as well. And and being in and allowing myself to be influenced by the streets. When I knew, but I when I saw, but I had a better example in front of me. So I don't absolve myself of the responsibility that I take in the poor choices that I made. Um But I I don't think that that makes it okay to be arrested and wrongfully charged.

SPEAKER_04: 1:09:47

Never, never. Not not at all. Whatever, whatever things you did, you paid for, and then some a lot.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:56

Yeah. Bruce, but when you were, I was I was gonna ask you a question. When you were young coming up, what was your perception of the police in your neighborhood?

SPEAKER_09: 1:10:08

Well, first, when I was in the Low East Side, I didn't really have a bad relationship with cops. I remember seeing cops six, seven, eight years old, um, you know, going, my mother taking me to the bank, because my our neighborhood was drug infested. We lived on the east side, lower east side Manhattan, East 10th Street, um, in the 70s. But you saw the same cops in those neighborhoods that you saw them every day. You saw them every day, so they kind of under, they kind of knew who you were. You know, they knew my father, what he my father bought um a white Lincoln Continental in the 70s, and and and some new cops thought he was a pimp, right? And cops from the neighborhood that knew he wasn't out, but that he was a hard-working man would kind of be like, oh no, that's that's such and such. Right? So I think having that relationship, or having that understanding and knowing who each other's uh families were. Now you live in the inner cities, they bring officers from way out in Long Island to police the inner cities. So there's no sense of community there. Like we they don't know each other, right? They don't they've never seen each other before. Right? It's it's like you take a um you take a uh uh a rookie cop that comes from the suburbs and you put him in some of the worst housing projects in New York City to police. That's a recipe for disaster.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:43

Oh my gosh, heck yeah, I've been screaming at for a lot for years.

SPEAKER_09: 1:11:47

Yeah, it's a recipe for disaster. One or two things is gonna happen. One is he's gonna have, he's gonna create a bad situation where he responds impulsively out of fear, right? Because he's not used to this environment. Or the community may look at him and just, you know, just completely shun him because he's no no one knows him. The one thing that builds trust is some level of consistency. So if you see the same person consistency consistently and you develop some type of relationship, even if it's a head nod, you know, if there have been offices where you see in the community all the time, it's at least a head nod, and you begin to speak because I always see you here. Right? But if you bring a guy from Long Island to police uh 40 projects, the uh Queensbridge Housing Projects, one of the biggest housing projects in New York City, um, you know, there's something bad that's bound to happen, right?

SPEAKER_05: 1:12:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09: 1:12:49

Because you can't expect him to just understand and know his environment, an environment that he's that he's never been in. And you can't expect the people in that environment to have a relationship with him, or to even want to confide in him and say, yo, look, man, you know, this is going on, man. We're trying to clean up the community. You know, we let's work together. They don't know him, they've never seen him before.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:14

Yeah. What was your experience like with the corrections officers during your entire, was it 29 years?

SPEAKER_09: 1:13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:21

So in 29 years, was it would you say that 10% corruption, no corruption, they treated you fair the whole time? Like, what was your impression of the correction system?

SPEAKER_09: 1:13:35

Well, the correction offices here in New York State, you know, um both black and white. Um I mean, corrupt all the way. Corrupt on so many levels.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:50

I mean, from speak your truth, brother. This is where we need to hear it.

SPEAKER_09: 1:13:54

From the abuse, from the abuse. I mean, they just killed Robert Brooks in a medium, right? You saw the video on Robert Brooks.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:03

That was horrible.

SPEAKER_09: 1:14:05

Yeah, right. And that's that's every day, man. I was in Clinton, Dana Mora, where guys get their ass whipped like that two, three times a day. So I've been jumped on by the CEOs, but it before I even got upstate, I was jumped on by the CEOs on Rikers Island. Right? So they're really um, they're really hands-on. They're really hands-on. It's a it's a deep adversarial relationship, um, and corruption on on so many levels. It's like, it's like, you know, they they have the biggest gang. And it's always us against them, right? And that's the mentality that the officers come to work with. I know some officers that simply come to work, put on black gloves, and they're there to kick somebody's ass every single day. They're consistent, they're consistent assholes, a lot of them. Then you have one or two that say, look, man, I'm just here to do my job, man. Don't stab nobody, don't let me see you doing nothing you ain't supposed to do, and we're gonna have an easy day. I tell you what, everybody that contacts me from prison, since the National Guards have been all across New York State as a result of Robert Book's death, all say the same thing. Man, the National Guards treat us way better than the correction officers. These are 19, 20-year-old kids. They don't treat us like the officers do. Everybody that called me from prison has said that over and over and over again. There's a campaign right now that's spearheaded by Derek Hamilton, um, called the EPV campaign, in prison violence campaign, as a result, which was developed as a result of Robert Brooks and Mohammed Natwe, who was also killed in the prison across the street from Marcy. Now, I don't know if you know this, but the Muslim chaplain was alleged to have killed himself in that same prison last week.

SPEAKER_04: 1:16:15

I didn't.

SPEAKER_09: 1:16:16

In the same prison Marcy, where Robert Brooks was killed, you it's been in every newspaper, the Imam, the Muslim chaplain, they they they claimed came into the prison last Friday with a gun on him and pulled out his gun while he was in the superintendent's office and blew his own head off. Imam Abdullah Um Habian. Just they said just killed himself. He had five kids.

SPEAKER_04: 1:16:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_09: 1:16:49

So right now in some prisons, you may have 20 correction officers that work a night shift when it should be 180.

SPEAKER_04: 1:16:59

Holy shit.

SPEAKER_09: 1:17:00

Because no, yeah, they had they had the wildcat strike. The governor fired 2,000 of them for uh for striking illegally. Some in a prison called Collins, they lied. You can look that up too. They fabricated and said, well, the prisoners took the prisoners took over the prison. The commissioner found that the the correction officers staged that whole hostage situation. And this was on the news. They staged the entire thing. They walked off the job. When Albany and the commissioner and them went in there, they said, We ain't had a correction officer in here all day, man. They just left us in here. We don't know how we're gonna eat. We don't know how we're gonna go to the mess hall to eat and go to program, get our medication, which has been one of the biggest consequences of uh of the shutdown, was the national didn't know how to operate the medical system. So guys that needed medication, whether it was diabetic medication or something else. Um and you know, guys, some some guys had diabetic attacks, some guys died, some guys committed suicide because the National Guards didn't do their rounds. So they were nicer to the men and women inside, but they don't know how to operate a prison because they've never been there. And the National Guards are 18, 19, 20-year-old kids. And they're inside of Sing Sing in different prisons right now as we speak. No one is taking the correction officer test. No one wants to be correction officers as a result of Robert Brooks exposing what's been going on for decades. Prison violence has been going on for decades.

SPEAKER_05: 1:18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09: 1:18:47

I got my ass kicked, I got my ass kicked several times in prison.

SPEAKER_04: 1:18:52

For nothing.

SPEAKER_09: 1:18:53

That is very, very common.

SPEAKER_04: 1:18:54

Is it like how does it how does it even start?

SPEAKER_09: 1:18:57

It starts when they pull you out the line and throw you on the wall, then they don't see you, then everybody, no one sees you in the prison again, and the officers write a complaint and say, well, he took his hands off the wall, and we thought we was, you know, we had to use force. Use of force had to be implemented because he came off the wall. That's that's that's every misbehavior report that where a guy has a black eye or a broken rib or an eye socket or he loses the eye. I know guys that have lost an entire eye. Um look at, I tell you what, when you get a chance, you may have heard of it, view the Alabama project, Alabama Solution. Have you heard about that?

SPEAKER_04: 1:19:35

I have not.

SPEAKER_09: 1:19:43

I went to a screening, um, and I had no idea that Alabama may be the worst system in the country. Um thousands of incarcerated people have been killed in there by officers. And one of the things that many people don't know is a lot of them have had their organs missing.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:04

Oh shit.

unknown: 1:20:06

Man.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:06

Yeah. Holy fuck. Okay.

SPEAKER_09: 1:20:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:11

So you're you're confirming what so Alabama, if you look up the Alabama solution.

SPEAKER_09: 1:20:17

Which is very, very deep.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:20

So okay. So I want to.

SPEAKER_09: 1:20:26

What made the Alabama solution so deep, and it's out now, so we can just we can talk about it is it was filmed on cell phone by people inside. So they got all the in-depth stuff that was happening inside of Alabama prisons.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_09: 1:20:42

So you get a chance, please do that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_09: 1:20:45

And you'll see probably the worst system in the country.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:48

For sure. Okay. Yeah, we'll we'll get into that. Um, one of the things I I one, you're definitely confirming some suspicions that I've had for a while. Because I find it very ironic that as big of a push for body cams that they had for police, and and now it most cops that I know they feel naked without their body cam. Um you never see corrections officers raising their hands for that, wanting that. Never hear of any of them having that. Um, there's very few cameras that ever seem to be um available when you need it for inside the prison system. And to me, I'm not saying that you're being shady, but it just shows that there's you should be wanting to put that out there. And they're not doing that. And I want to give a shout out to Harrison for 20 memberships.

SPEAKER_09: 1:21:41

I think they forgot their body cameras on when they uh killed and beat Robert Brooks to death.

SPEAKER_04: 1:21:49

Yeah, that's what got them up. They're not used to having them.

SPEAKER_09: 1:21:52

They're not used to having them.

SPEAKER_04: 1:21:54

Yep. And the office I agree, and I think the only time they use them is when they have something special like that. When they have to go to the hospital and there's other people around.

SPEAKER_07: 1:22:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:22:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:05

Yeah, Bruce, being that this is it's just such a mess, and what you're describing is so heartbreaking. I'm I'm I want to cry hearing hearing that uh what you had to go through. What what if you had one, if you were able to be God for a minute, what would be your top solution? Where will we start?

SPEAKER_09: 1:22:24

That's that's a very good question, right? That's a very, very good question. How do we reimagine a society where prisons are communities where people actually, you know, where we where rehabilitation means something, right? Um and even I'll even go as far as reimagining a society where we don't have prisons, but we also have a adequate mental health system and a system that holds people accountable in more humane ways. Because the reality is this close to 50% of the people incarcerated in the United States are living with dyslexia. So many of them have learning disabilities, which is a crime generative factor, right? Um, the vast majority of people that commit crimes come from impoverished neighborhoods. Poverty is a crime-generative factor. Poverty is a level of violence, right? When you don't know where your next meal is coming from, when you don't have full shelter or clothing. That's violent. That's psychologically, psychological violence, right? Um right now across the country, maybe 40 to 50 percent of the of the prison population are living with mental health issues, right? So do people with mental health issues need prison or do they need treatment? I think that they need treatment. I think they need serious medical attention, right? Yeah, to deal with their mental health. But also, I think therapy for incarcerated people is just as important. It's one thing that helped me uh when I walked out is um being open and being receptive to having therapy, understanding that 29 years in prison in an abnormal environment um can have uh, you know, a traumatic traumatic experience. And how do we get through that with some level of assistance is to get a good therapist and somebody to talk to.

SPEAKER_04: 1:24:35

Yeah, yeah, I can only imagine. It's it's uh you know, I I don't want to compare it to law enforcement, but law enforcement officers they see a lot of traumas throughout their careers. Absolutely. Now go into an environment where uh apparently, especially with your experience, you don't just have to watch your ass from some of the inmates that are in there, you gotta watch your ass from the people who are supposed to be in there protecting you.

SPEAKER_09: 1:24:56

Yeah, I mean, it's not by accident that probably law enforcement, whether it's the police officers and the corrections, rates of suicide.

SPEAKER_04: 1:25:05

Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_09: 1:25:08

Because of the level of stress.

SPEAKER_04: 1:25:12

Yeah, and in you know, in prison, they take they take just about everything away from you that can even let you commit suicide. So the the rates would probably be higher from the traumas that they have to deal with in prison. Yeah, so man. Um so now with your with your district attorney or your prosecutor being corrupt, your um the corrections officers that you had to deal with being corrupt, I I am curious how you can still have such an optimistic mindset with giving your plight. And I'm not gonna say that you're you're putting us out on a pedestal pedestal by any way, but you still even you are still willing to admit, despite what's happened to you, that there's good cops. There seems to be some good corrections officers out there. Like you're able to distinguish that. And I know people that have never even really had an encounter with police in their life, and they fucking hate cops. So uh it's insane.

SPEAKER_09: 1:26:22

I think that some people have had bad experiences with uh correction officers. My friend just told the guy, look, man, um, you know, a correction officer is not a bad job. You just had a bad experience with corrections, right? Yeah, and for those who haven't had an experience with them, I think it's important for people to get involved because you can only make change by being on the inside. Like you got you can't sit back, you know, it's easy to be an armchair revolutionary, right? You sit behind, sit behind a chair, you can't do Monday morning quarterback everything. But when you're in it, that's something totally different, right? A lot of these guys have never been in it. It ain't easy to do any of that stuff. It's not easy to wake up every morning and have to carry a pistol, not knowing whether your life is gonna go up to the stairs, not knowing whether your life is gonna be just kind of looking at the off button.

SPEAKER_04: 1:27:22

This has been the best podcast we've ever had because of the all the changes in scenery. Is that mom? No, this is pop.

SPEAKER_08: 1:27:34

This is this is the old camera.

SPEAKER_04: 1:27:36

Yes, the light, the lights blocking. I couldn't tell if it was a guy or a girl. Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_08: 1:27:40

Yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna let you go.

SPEAKER_04: 1:27:47

I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy. How wonderful is this? This is such great stuff. I love the love, brother. Yes, this is uh we try we try to despite all the negativity around this career field, we try to show the good stuff. And Pops can take his time. You're being awfully quiet, Bany.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28:15

I'm taking this all in. I'm I'm uh I'm taking this all in, man. That's uh this is absolutely one of the most amazing, horrific stories at the same time I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_04: 1:28:26

I know. I and you guys know me. I I tend to hone in on optimistic optimism things and his attitude towards everything so far is just like I love it. I love I love where his heart is so far in all of this. You guys wonder where my my unrealistic optimism comes from. He's worse than me. Would you agree, Matt? He's worse than me.

SPEAKER_03: 1:28:54

Oh my gosh, this guy for Bruce, Bruce can uh he can inspire the masses, man, with this story is just so amazing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:02

You know, I'm I know this is pie in the sky, but I would love for Bruce to be able to sit in front of the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court gives him 20 minutes on what needs to be changed, not just in the New York justice system, but across the entire country. And for the Supreme Court to actually listen to it, look into it, and make said changes, that would be that would be a stark.

SPEAKER_04: 1:29:25

I think with his justice defense idea, that's one way to get started. Inmates and in prison guards working together to help fight their cases and educate. Like, I never heard of such a thing. But it it when you hear it, you're like, oh duh. That makes sense. Why have we not done that? I hope nobody trips and falls because it looks dark. I can't see anything.

unknown: 1:29:56

Three, four times, right?

SPEAKER_04: 1:29:58

Oh man, this is crazy. Crazy stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:01

I would have found I would have found every crack and crevice and curb and been dab to get.

SPEAKER_04: 1:30:08

Freeman Keyes said, um, this is gold. I appreciate Bruce showing up tonight. Even though he was obviously busy, and thank you guys for covering this. Bruce is one of many. Yeah. Yep. Yep, Mr. Billfold said.

SPEAKER_09: 1:30:22

I'm taking them up the stairs. I'm coming right now.

SPEAKER_04: 1:30:23

No worries, brother. You take your time. We're going to the comment section now. They're loving this.

SPEAKER_09: 1:30:28

Thank you, man.

SPEAKER_04: 1:30:30

Yeah. Bro, this is what it's all about. Family. Love. I love it. Um, Mr. Billfold said, Bruce's attitude is because his freedom being stolen, not in spite of it. Um, if I had corrupt cops and prosecution steal over half my life, I would treat any sunshine as a win. It's a self-preservation. Fair assessment. Yeah, and I but I'm curious. I mean, he seems like he's always kind of been an optimistic guy. You know, and and Matt, I I know you you're around a lot of kids that are probably close to the position that he's been in when he first started. So, you know, doing doing your nonprofit um shit, Bruce might be good to get involved.

SPEAKER_03: 1:31:21

Oh he would he would uh he definitely keep your attention.

SPEAKER_04: 1:31:25

You know what I mean? Yeah. Because he he went through it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:31:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_04: 1:31:29

Don't be the statistic like he had to end up being. You know, try to get through to some of these kids before it's too late. It only only takes one it only takes one corrupt prosecutor to really screw you over.

SPEAKER_03: 1:31:44

Yeah, gee, that's such a that's that that pisses me off.

SPEAKER_04: 1:31:47

Yeah. Excuse me. Yeah, I feel bad. I want to know how many. Uh oh shit, I my computer is going crazy. There it goes. Freeman goes, yes, but how is he optimistic? It amazes me. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Who are you winking at? I see you winking over there. You gotta tell mama to go to bed.

SPEAKER_03: 1:32:21

I got caught, babe.

SPEAKER_04: 1:32:24

Hi, Daniel. They said hi. Hi. Come off camera. She can come on camera.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:31

No, I'm ready for bed.

SPEAKER_04: 1:32:33

Oh, that's okay. I've seen Matt before bed. Yeah, yes. Oh, we lost him. Oh, I think he uh what happened?

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:44

He he may have just hit his camera button. Maybe he may have just hit the camera button slightly.

SPEAKER_04: 1:32:49

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:32:51

There it goes. Oh, now we got him back. Get Matt's ugly. Mug off of there. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:32:56

My sweaty mug. Are you a Fox fan?

SPEAKER_04: 1:32:59

Bruce probably saw you and he's like, Oh, is this another inmate?

SPEAKER_03: 1:33:03

Don't start. Don't start. We got company.

SPEAKER_04: 1:33:08

Oh. Yeah, I think I think Bruce would dig you, Matt. I think he would uh love to come out and I bet he, I'm not gonna put words in his mouth, but I think he would let me put it this way. I think it'd be very beneficial if we could get Bruce to uh link up with your people for your nonprofit.

SPEAKER_03: 1:33:25

Oh, they would they would they would love it. Yeah, we would love it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:33:28

Yeah, we'll when when he gets uh done going up a million steps or whatever he's doing, we'll we'll discuss it with him. Oh shit, the police coming down the street. Run Bruce, not again. The knight said that is a sign of a strong mind. It would be far easier to circle into hate. Whatever he uses as his motivation is likely what guides him, whether that be family faith or desire things to improve. Yeah, I think that's uh absolutely spot on. I think it's awesome. I love it because I I have days where I get down and I'm not nearly as optimistic as I normally am. And uh somehow I'm yeah, I'm usually able to pull myself out of a funk either with a nap, some food, or just just forcing myself to realize I'm not in a good place and start thinking optimistically.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:36

You know, Eric, I wish I could take half of Bruce's motivation for some of these law enforcement officers out there that may be at seven or ten years and they hit this brick wall of everything's wrong, everything's this, everything is that, and you look at this man that has overcome that many years and the way he looks at life. I mean, not just law enforcement, but just people in general, of how he is absolutely looking at life now on what's been done to him and how he is serving others in life. And that's that's that's the big moral of this story is how how look at what Bruce is doing now with his life after what he's gone through. Why can't others do the same? You know, he's gone. I mean, I can't imagine. And I know the only one, and it's I can't imagine this.

SPEAKER_04: 1:35:24

I'm curious how many people he helped along the way while he was still in. Look at the people he's helping while he's out. Look at the he was already involved in some other nonprofits of people helping out other prisoners and stuff going on. Um, you know, in the the Uganda, the the justice defender thing, um, all of these things. The dude's been dedicated. It's a life of service, you know. What what we hope other cops and the rest of us in the criminal justice system, reason why we got into it. We want to help people, yeah. Um you know, and he was there helping people when he needed help.

SPEAKER_00: 1:36:01

I just hope for the rest of his life he doesn't have to pay for a damn thing.

SPEAKER_04: 1:36:05

Yeah. Mr. Belfold, I'm petty and vindictive. I believe that. I believe that, sir. Uh somebody said, Oh, Marines Blood said, want to encourage Eric and banning more? Donate here. Thanks, guys. Yeah, if you guys decide to um do a little more than the likes, follows, and subscribes or share us, like, yeah, the buy me a coffee thing. It's a it's a good way to help keep doing what we're doing. Um, my wife just got on me today for all of the money coming out for what we have going on. Uh, she's like, You gotta she's like, you gotta turn off some of these subscriptions. She goes, Why are you paying for YouTube premium? She doesn't know why we're paying for premium. It's not for me. It's not for me, guys.

SPEAKER_00: 1:37:00

Oh, I think uh I think Bruce put his camera to a side so he could take care of business, and I appreciate and applaud that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:37:08

Yeah, whatever he's gotta do. Yeah, just making sure that he's actually still connected and we're just not watching darkness. But I think that would go away if he was uh not on there. But um he said tax write-off. Love it.

SPEAKER_09: 1:37:27

I'm back, brothers.

SPEAKER_04: 1:37:28

Well, Bruce is back, baby. Here we go.

SPEAKER_09: 1:37:31

I had to get the old time upstairs, man.

SPEAKER_04: 1:37:34

Hey, man, you do your thing, brother. We're bro, this has been one of the everybody in the comments said the same shit. One of the funnest, best podcasts we've done. It's been all over the place.

SPEAKER_00: 1:37:46

And and I'm I'm gonna say something, Bruce. I look at life every day as positive as I can, and I wish I had half the heart you do. So kudos to you, man. I mean, this small time amount of time that we've had with you makes me look at life so much better and all the good things that we have. And and thank you, thank you for being a part of what we're doing. I love that our viewers are getting to hear your story. So thank you for taking the time for us.

SPEAKER_09: 1:38:12

Thank you so much, man. That means so much to me just being able to be here and share with you guys, man. And and I think that we we, you know, we're an example. You said you had Derek going there as well, Derek Hamilton. But it's an example of how we can we can come together, man. We can sit down and have real conversations. And we may not agree on everything, but we know that there's, you know, we can recognize that our humanity is attached, and there's nothing we can do about that. We're connected, right? And we can be an example of what it means to be better and to do better and to do and to get along and have real conversations, man.

SPEAKER_04: 1:38:50

Yeah, and the thing that I love is you are so much ammunition and credibility because you're not bitter and angry, because you're so optimistic, you're so level-headed about owning up, like, no, there's still some good, but there's problems, and the I faced them personally, and then you got us three on here who are we're the opposite side where we're saying, Look, the other cops aren't gonna say this, but we are. There's problems, and we need to we need to own it for one. That's the first step. Fucking own it, and we're owning it. We know there's problems. That's why we wanted you on. It does me no good. I don't sit in a gym. And I commend you guys.

SPEAKER_09: 1:39:35

I I don't sit I commend you guys, man. I appreciate it for wanting to make a difference. I really commend you, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:39:42

Yeah, and and I can't sit in a prison, I can't go to prisons, you know, and not as a cop. It's one of those things. I need somebody's perspective that's not going to be biased. And it's gonna be harder for me to get somebody that was in that was convicted of an actual crime versus a guy that was innocent and then had to do who got as wrong as wrong can be to come out with that optimism, that self-improvement, and then the ability to say that look, there's there's some good in here, guys, but no, there's a lot of bad too, and you need to do something about it. So having all those factors together, brother, like that is how we start getting some change out there. So we're we're trying to do like what you're doing, we're trying to put the fight up, but from the other side. So our forces combined, our voices, I think, will be heard. That's the optimistic side. I'm the rose-colored glasses guy on the cop side.

SPEAKER_09: 1:40:39

So thank you, Matt.

SPEAKER_04: 1:40:41

Yeah, thank you. Not a problem. Um, I do have a question, and I'm gonna ask it on behalf of Matt. Matt runs a nonprofit for troubled youth at that age that you were in in the in the you know, just in the Chicago area. Um, I think if they heard you and your experience and all of that, Matt, you go. I I'm ti I think you should speak to his people. I'm putting I'll put it that way. But Matt, you tell them you tell them what it's all about.

SPEAKER_03: 1:41:08

Oh, I mean, I I I run a couple nonprofits. We just invite all the the young, fatherless gang members, uh, disenchanted kids from my streets. I many of them I uh I make an arrest on us. Hey, what do you do? I'm gonna I'm gonna release you, but what do you do on Fridays? Come and join my crew. Um, so we we we take them, I take them, we don't turn anyone down. Um, to come as you are, and we're gonna form a brotherhood and try to love love you. It's centered around basketball, but we we mentor, we we feed everybody, we we teach them about uh the gospel, we teach them about life, uh, we try to get them jobs. So it's it's a really kind of do a lot for for the youth in our city. And um, your your voice would carry some weight. Oh my gosh, I can I can only picture you talking to some of my kids because some of them are uh they're going they're going down the wrong path. And and uh we we have a lot of victories, but there's we we have a lot of defeats too. I'm always looking for any anything to give motivation. So I was just thinking, like, man, you you they would be in awe of you.

SPEAKER_04: 1:42:07

Yeah, so you can't tell.

SPEAKER_09: 1:42:09

Let's figure it out. I would love to talk to them.

SPEAKER_04: 1:42:12

You you can't tell it, um, Bruce, but uh despite Matt's appearance there, he he has actually been convicted of a crime and still been able to be a cop. So yes, I have. I have one on my record. Yep. So um Bruce, I before you know, you've been so kind to to be on here as long as you have, and we really appreciate that. Um, we want to help fix the system. I you're we want to help get your story out there. I I'm I've been sharing your website and all that stuff. I actually have your website here. Let me share that too. So you can uh if anybody wants to book you, I see that they can uh jump on your website here.

SPEAKER_07: 1:42:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04: 1:42:58

Um so if you guys want to talk to Bruce, look at that. That's a gorgeous man right there.

SPEAKER_09: 1:43:03

Thank you, brother.

SPEAKER_04: 1:43:07

Um, but uh and and see more about his story. I like that. You got hoodies too? Humanize my hoodie? Yes, fight for justice. I like that. Um oh shit, look, he got the open, the open shirt. Got a little sex appeal going, ladies and gentlemen. Um but uh Bruce, before I we let you go, like I wanna how do we close this to make the system better? How do we how do we look at this with an open heart and an open mind to to make to make it better for the police side and for those that may be going through the system?

SPEAKER_09: 1:43:50

I think one of the things that people should do is ask themselves what it is that they would want to see um if they were on either side. How would they want to be treated and how would they treat others? You know, let's start with that. Let's take a good look at ourselves, right? Because each of us have talents, we have gifts, and we can contribute in a meaningful way. And we all want a safe community, we all want to thrive in life, we want to be happy, we want health, right? And we want to live a decent life, right? We all really want the same things. We want to come, we want to live in a neighborhood where there's no shootings, no killings. We want our children to go to school and be safe. Right? And I think it starts with conversations like the ones that we're having now.

SPEAKER_05: 1:44:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09: 1:44:35

Right? It don't hurt for you to go and say, man, I want to have a real conversation. Um, yeah, I don't care if the guy's an officer or uh a lieutenant or a correction officer. Let's have some conversation. Let's talk. Let's talk about what it is that we have in common as opposed to the things that we have that we think are different. Because we're really all one, man. And humanity starts with each of us recognizing that we're all a part of this this this big universe, man. This this this big family, you know?

SPEAKER_04: 1:45:05

Yeah.

unknown: 1:45:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:45:07

Amen to that. 100%, brother. Beautiful. I love it. All right, Bruce. Um, I'm gonna talk with these knuckleheads here as we wrap up. I'm gonna let you go do your thing. Um, thank you so much. If you're in Texas or you're coming to Texas, let me know. Um I I would love to connect with you.

SPEAKER_09: 1:45:26

Um you can. Uh, I don't know if you put up my social media, Bruce.brian24.

SPEAKER_04: 1:45:33

I did not, but I can, sir. Bruce.brian.24. Is that on Instagram?

SPEAKER_09: 1:45:38

Yeah, it's Bruce.brian24.

SPEAKER_04: 1:45:41

Oh, Bruce.brian24 on Instagram. I am putting that up right now, sir.

SPEAKER_09: 1:45:47

So people, I mean, I know some people like to reach out that way. Um, and if I can share a word with your with your young people and your nonprofit brother, we can figure it out. And um, I would love to because that's what it is about pouring into each other and sharing with each other, man.

SPEAKER_04: 1:46:03

Hell yeah. Awesome. Um, Bruce, I will uh I'll get offline with you um later uh and connect Matt with you, and we'll just do like a group text and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_09: 1:46:13

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04: 1:46:13

Get that.

SPEAKER_09: 1:46:14

Thank you all so much, man. Thank you for having me. It was an honor, it was a pleasure. Thank you for your patience, too. I appreciate you so much. Oh, bro, I love it.

SPEAKER_04: 1:46:21

That made the whole episode. I loved it. Phenomenal. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:46:25

The honor is all ours, man. Thank you so much for coming on with us.

SPEAKER_04: 1:46:29

God bless you, brother. Take it easy, all thank you so much. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_09: 1:46:32

Have a good night. You too.

SPEAKER_04: 1:46:40

Fellas.

SPEAKER_03: 1:46:41

Fellas.

SPEAKER_04: 1:46:42

That was worth the wait. Yes, it was. Yeah, he was uh he was awesome. That was uh that was great. Uh you know, I was like, I'm not gonna ask him back on, but he had some shit going on, obviously. So taking care of Pops, dude, that was great, absolutely great. Um audience, everybody in the crowd, thank you for being respectful to his time. Um, it was very cool, very cool. Um, had a good time. I think in you're welcome, Matt, because I know you wouldn't have asked. Thank you, thank you. I was like, bro, you get him on the non. We gotta help out.

SPEAKER_03: 1:47:21

I'd like to do the talking, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:47:24

Fucker. No, that's awesome. I'm glad we were able to do that too. Um shit. My my computer is glitching up on me. Fucking mosquitoes, really.

SPEAKER_03: 1:47:38

Oh my gosh, I wish it was warm enough for that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:47:41

I know it's like uh what is it right now? It is um 76. Oh, I hate your guts. You don't have to live up there, brother.

SPEAKER_00: 1:47:51

I don't want to. I think you reached what, 90 today?

SPEAKER_04: 1:47:54

Close to, yeah, at least. Yeah, it was pretty damn close. Yeah. Um, yeah, people, people in the uh audience, somebody said it was worth it. You know, please come back. Oh, yeah. Please come back with updates, Bruce. Um, definitely do that. Freeman Keys, I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion. And and I'm sorry, guys, I know some of you guys were donating. Um, I I believe the last one was, I think it was Harrison. Let me go back if I can.

SPEAKER_00: 1:48:20

Umated 20.

SPEAKER_04: 1:48:22

Yeah, Harrison. Yeah, I I wanted to give proper um due to the people that were donating. I just you know how it goes, guys. I don't want to interrupt uh a guest while they're talking. I'll stop what I'm saying to thank you guys, but um, I did try to get Harrisons in there real quick, but it we were rock and rolling.

SPEAKER_00: 1:48:40

So we appreciate that so much, but when you have a guest like this on that's gone through, and I know everybody's got their own personal story, but man, what you guys just heard, and we just heard a teen. You know, we a little bit of this. I mean, we could probably have this guy on every week for two years, and we'd be more stories.

SPEAKER_04: 1:48:58

Yeah, yeah. I I I wanted to give an abbreviated story so we could get to where it was corrupt at, where where the problems were at, and all that stuff. And so um that that's that's what the the correction stuff really didn't surprise me. Um, but that's from the horse's mouth. I wanted to hear it from the horse's mouth.

SPEAKER_03: 1:49:18

Like to hear how dejected he was talking about that. That that was heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_04: 1:49:23

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, well, you're at your most vulnerable, and there's nobody to turn to, nobody's gonna listen to you. That's the problem with with the once you're once you're convicted of something, you're fucked. No one's listening, you're out of sight, out of mind. No one gives a shit. And that's why I think it's important. That's why for my show, for the balance of this show, I gotta have those voices on here. I gotta get, especially the ones that would have been wronged improperly. You know, it's one thing if you you know, like you'll you talk to Aaron Dyson, one of the guys that I had on the show. Um, he did wrong, he admits it. He's like, Yeah, I shot a dude with a shotgun that killed my cousin. He goes, he's like, but the dude that I shot and injured, he got less time in prison than I got for kid, and he killed his cousin, which is insane. How do you get how does that guy get 10 years and you get 54 years? And then the guy that you shot ends up advocating for your release. Like that's crazy. He did 24 years, Bruce did 29 years, Derek Hamilton did 26 years. So I will continue to have these guys on here because it's one thing to have Joe Rogan advocate for you, which is great. I love Joe. That's the reason I started a podcast because of Joe Rogan. But it's another thing to have some dudes that do the job that are on the side of handing out, getting that ball rolling for you to go to prison. They need to hear from us too. I think that's the important part. They gotta hear from us. We gotta, we've gotta stand up, we've got to talk, we've got to see this stuff, we've got to help prevent people from getting sucked into the system improperly. So, um now.

SPEAKER_03: 1:51:14

How many bruises are out there?

SPEAKER_04: 1:51:15

Yeah, how many bruises are out there? If there's one, there's more. Yep. So, you know, and and and I the the latest that I've heard about improperly incarcerated people is somewhere in the window of six to fifteen percent. I don't know how accurate that is. I can't tell you where I saw that study. It was a while probably a couple years back. I remember hearing about it though, and I was like, man, is that number right? Six to fifteen percent. I say if I say if you're I say if you're one percent or more, you're that's too high. Yeah, 80%. Yeah. Now if you're if you're staying under a percent, okay, there's there are probably some crazy shit that happens at all the stars aligned, and you just were in the wrong place, wrong time, holding the wrong gun. I don't know, but yeah, my cousin Vinny's. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, so yeah, there's a lot of people in the audience that don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00: 1:52:15

I've seen that movie ten times, man.

SPEAKER_04: 1:52:19

For Marissa, yeah, yeah. Um, looking at the comments. Um something the LEOs to think about. Are you just feeding the meat grinder? Yeah. Yep. Um, Marine Blood said from tonight, thank you, Brand R86, for the five gifted subs and Harrison Brock for the 20. Yep, I agree. Thank you very much. Um, Mr. Bill Fold said there are tens of thousands of Bruces out there. Maybe I mean it's possible.

SPEAKER_03: 1:52:52

I don't want any Bruces out there.

SPEAKER_04: 1:52:54

Yeah, I don't want any. One's too many. One is too many, but what are the odds out of all of them? Let's say you line up a hundred of them that went through Bruce's situation that have Bruce's attitude.

SPEAKER_03: 1:53:06

Yeah, that's a rare thing.

SPEAKER_04: 1:53:08

Yeah. Not only did he hit the that's a question I should have asked him. When did he hit the ground running to self-improve? How quickly? Did it take a year? Did it take three years before that mindset triggered?

SPEAKER_03: 1:53:22

I bet it's just in him. I bet he started really quick.

SPEAKER_04: 1:53:25

Yeah, I I get that same impression that he would have just hit the ground running, but I'm curious. I want to know, was there because like I said, like I'm a very optimistic guy, but you know, damn. I you know, I kind of confided into some of the guys the other day. I'm like, I'm having a rough go at work. I'm sucking at my job, not intentionally, it's just it's a whole new thing for me what I'm doing at work. A whole new thing. It's a specialized unit. I've I've never been in a supervisory position in a specialized unit that is expanding and doing things that have never been done in law enforcement. And I'm surrounded by a team of rock stars, a bunch of guys that have they're seasoned and know what they're doing. And here's this new baby sergeant that's never done any of this stuff coming in and just screwing the pooch left and right. I just keep screwing up, you know, don't know what to do, need my handheld for this. Don't do something I probably should have been doing. Uh just left and right. I've been I've been having a bad go at work and I'm trying to get out of that funk.

SPEAKER_00: 1:54:31

Uh but hey, at least you're you're recognizing that and you're willing to learn, willing to change. There's a lot of people that will stay in that funk, and I know you, you're gonna go for perfection. And it looks like I'm freezing again, and I apologize, guys.

SPEAKER_04: 1:54:43

There you go. Yeah, you kind of unfroze there for a second. Jesus, can we get fiber out in the country, please? Starlink something. There you go, you unfroze, Benny. Yeah, so for me, like even me, like I went through a little funk where I was just like, damn, I keep screwing up left and right. And you know, the last few days, I ate small little wins, and you guys know me. I hold on to the slot. Well, break them, baby. I'm like, oh, I did something good, I got a compliment, or I did this, and they were like, Thank you. And I was like, that's what I need to be doing. I need to keep doing that shit. So um, yeah, Wade Lucero. Eric is suffering from ID fix, not being on the streets. I gotta get it. I need some of the IDs, Joe Rogan.

SPEAKER_00: 1:55:34

Oh shit, Wade. Wade with the save.

SPEAKER_04: 1:55:40

Oh, yeah, yeah. Ghost Patch, make sure you go to Ghost Patch Customs, guys. That is our um I what are those called? Flex flex shields. Yes, those are the flex shields. Make sure you check them out. Make sure if you guys are trying to improve your police and you want them to do better and you want their systems to work better, and you can't afford to pay more cops, go to peregrine.io. I guarantee at peregrine.io, they will help your police department save money, and if they can't put police, uh more new police in the system, they can at least use technology to help supplement. So check them out. Uh, also make sure you check out uh a missing one. Who am I missing? Ghost Patch?

SPEAKER_00: 1:56:20

Peregrine shirts retro rifle.

SPEAKER_04: 1:56:25

Yeah, I'm wearing it. Yeah, my shirt. I knew I was missing one. Um retro-rifle. Make sure you check them out because it's all Hawaiian shirts and pop culture with guns hidden in them. So we are pro 2A, we're pro 1A shit.

SPEAKER_00: 1:56:40

Pro E P A. Sound like I'm from Canada.

SPEAKER_04: 1:56:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shut up, Benny. Um, I got the two-minute warning, fellas. Got the two-minute warning. Okay, so we're we're gonna end it. Yeah, we're we're right there anyway. So um, everybody, thank you for joining us tonight. Uh, Matt, make sure everybody checks out uh your nonprofit, my father's business.

SPEAKER_03: 1:57:04

Yep, mfbuth.org.

SPEAKER_04: 1:57:06

At mfbuse.org. Correct. And then um uh for banning, you guys just just look at banning and say hello. Um check him out on LinkedIn. And for us, LinkedIn can you can find us on two cops, one donut, just about anywhere um that you can think of. So check us out. Everybody tonight, thank you very much, Wade Lucera. I see you. Peace, brother. Uh Mr. Bill Fold, Eyes of the State, everybody, take it easy. Freeman Keys, take it easy and later.