AI Cannot Be Probable Cause

You can learn a lot about the law by watching what people argue about in real time. Tonight we’re joined by Von Kliem, the Force Science “poster boy,” and we jump straight into the questions listeners actually care about: when a suspect runs, can police follow them into a house, and what counts as exigent circumstances or hot pursuit under the Fourth Amendment?

From there we zoom out to the future of law enforcement technology. We talk AI in courts, algorithmic bias, and why facial recognition must never be treated as probable cause by itself. We also get practical about policy: case numbers, verification steps, analyst workflows, and the same common-sense rule that applies to ALPR hits too. AI can organize information, but it cannot replace judgment, validation, and accountability.

Then we tackle body-worn cameras and the “record everything” debate, including muting, storage costs, battery limits, and the very real human exhaustion of being under constant scrutiny. We break down a disturbing baton video where commands and strikes collide, discuss what compliance should look like, and talk honestly about the duty to intervene when another officer loses control. We end on a needed counterweight: a coordinated search that finds a missing nonverbal autistic child safe, and why moments like that still matter.

If you got something out of this, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review. What’s one policing policy you think needs to change first?

Peregrine.io: Turn your worst detectives into Sherlock Holmes, head to Peregrine.io tell them Two Cops One Donut sent you or direct message me and I'll get you directly connected and skip the salesmen.

Transcript

Guests, Catch-Up, Live Q&A

SPEAKER_05 0:01

Hey everybody, welcome to Two Cops What's One Donut. I'm your host, Sergeant Eric Levine. Before we get started, here's a quick disclaimer. The views and opinions you're about to hear are those of the hosts and guests alone. They don't represent any police department, agency, sponsor, or employer. Two Cops One Donut isn't responsible for anything said by guests or for any videos, clips, or content shown during the live stream. This show is intended for adult audiences only. We cover real incidents, we show graphic and sometimes disturbing footage, and we don't shy away from strong language or adult conversations. There may or may not also be alcohol involved. Viewer discretion is strongly advised. Everything you hear or see on the show is for entertainment and educational purposes. It is not legal advice and it's not tactical instruction. And it shouldn't be used for such. By continuing to watch, you're telling us that you understand, you accept all this. All right. Now let's get into it. All right, welcome back to Cops One Donut. I am your host, Eric Levine. Today I have with me my co-host, my uh my ginger buddy, Banning Sweatland, and I've got the one, the only Force Science poster boy.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Oh jeez.

SPEAKER_05 1:13

The Von Kleem. What's up, brother?

SPEAKER_07 1:16

What's going on? Let me tell you what, we've got a handful of poster boys at Force Science right now. We've got a Mike Masengo, we got a Nicole Florisi, we got Craig Allen, we got Derek Cruz, and we got Brian Baxter, and of course the Dr. Lewinsky himself. So uh listen. Thanks for giving me that title tonight. Since I'm the only one here, I'll take it. But uh got an amazing team over there working right now.

SPEAKER_05 1:39

Yeah, it's it's it's not it's not a slam to them. It's uh it's more of when I think of force science, I think of Vaughn.

SPEAKER_07 1:47

So oh no, no, I'm I'm required to read that whenever somebody says it. So nice it's it's a great team over there. So I hope they're watching right now. They're all laughing with me.

SPEAKER_05 2:00

Love it. So um I'm back home, y'all. I am um officially out of the military orders. Uh, so I made it. It was about a month long, most of March. Couldn't have a real podcast, so I didn't want to invite any real guests on there because I was worried with the shoddy Wi-Fi that I had. It just it wouldn't have been fair to anybody I asked to take time away from their day to come on there just to constantly be getting booted off the internet and all that stuff. So um, but I did my time like a prisoner, did my time. All the Iran stuff definitely made it crazy. Uh, it was not a normal tour for me, but I made the best of it like I would with anything else. So now we're back. And banning's been chomping at the bit to get on here. Banning, what have you been up to, buddy?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Just working hard, man. Working uh working real hard and hoping hoping here in less than a month I'll I'll have a better uh picturesque face for whatever a better picture can do. So we'll we'll see how that goes. Better camera. I like it.

SPEAKER_05 3:02

I like it. Banning's been uh busting his ass on the keto. Uh no, yeah, carnivore. Carnivore, carnivore.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Carnivore. Yeah, buddy. Yeah, full full carnivore and did a uh 72-hour fast, which uh which I suggest. Obviously, I'm not a doctor. You go through your doctor, but uh suggest anybody that can handle 72 hours of just electrolyte water, it's uh it's an experience. It's uh it's good stuff.

SPEAKER_05 3:26

Yep, yep, yep. So yeah, uh, let me see. What other news have we got? Not a lot. Um, I I was I was out of it, so I couldn't really do anything to progress. Two cops, one donut. Um just there wasn't a whole lot going on. It was just a stale month. And for those that did pop on while I was uh doing some live streams from my phone or from my um iPad, I appreciate it that that did we we tried. We tried to do something. I just didn't want to inconvenience anybody else. Uh like having Vaughn on, that would have sucked if he'd have jumped on and spent his night and just to just to be kicked off often because the internet sucks.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

So and it wouldn't have been because of Vaughn's internet at that time, it would have been Yeah, it would have been it would have been uh the government's internet.

SPEAKER_05 4:14

Uh so let's look over at the chat, shall we? We do have I you know I gotta say it first, Von. I okay, Vaughn, I won't say his name. We haven't discussed him yet tonight. What name am I thinking in my head?

SPEAKER_07 4:28

Oh, I hope it's Mr. Billful.

Chasing A Suspect Into A Home

SPEAKER_05 4:30

Ah, he's on, he is on. See, Mr. B. I didn't even have to say your name. He knew you. That's he's he's gonna have that in his memory for the rest of his life right there.

SPEAKER_07 4:40

I see one of them popped up there, says something about the lawyer who thinks you can take a traffic stop into a third party's home. Is that um I don't know, one of their comments, and I'm like, yeah, you if the guy runs into somebody's house away from a traffic stop, you can absolutely chase him into that third party's house. That's not debatable. I don't think there's a lawyer out there who's gonna say something different than that. So I will proudly count myself among the lawyers who think that if a bad guy runs into a third party's house, you get to chase them in.

SPEAKER_05 5:14

That makes sense to me.

SPEAKER_07 5:15

Let's assume it's not a misdemeanor that you're chasing them for, because there are certainly some jurisdictions that don't want you chasing bad guys for misdemeanors anymore. But uh, you guys, we we we used to chase people in the house all the time, and they would we've already tested this in court over and over again, and we never got our drugs suppressed, we never got our arrests suppressed. So in that sense, it's not a close question. So I'm not sure, happy to flesh that out with whatever that commenter thinks I said because uh they all turn on a single fact, so maybe we're just not gonna be able to.

SPEAKER_05 5:47

Yeah, I I didn't I didn't see that one. Um, but yeah, I'm sure we we could definitely that's the thing, guys. Vaughn isn't gonna shy away from your questions, so that's that's part of the show, it's what we do. Um, but I do want to give a shout out to Harrison. Harrison helping support the show, guys. Your money goes right into the show, it doesn't go into me or Banning's pockets. Um, but he dropped 10 memberships. Oh, Banning, you weren't here. Guess who got a membership? No, I don't know. Blood got a membership. The Utahs finally opened up and they gave him a membership. It was unbelievable. Uh Devil Pup said your live streams from the location you were you were in were fine on my end. Yeah, they they didn't do bad. They didn't do bad out of the out of the barracks if that's what you want to go out. Steve Wallace in the house was up, Steve. Um but uh it just wasn't worth the risk because we did drop a couple times the first one, and I just didn't want to I didn't want to risk it after that. I was like, you know what, we'll just take it in stride doing and try to make the best of it.

SPEAKER_07 6:48

Um King King King Slayer. Nope, you said without chasing, you can move the stop into the house, never job being a liar on the criticism. Um well, if you if if the question is, can you without chasing someone move your traffic stop into a third party house? I don't know a circumstance where that is true. So if somebody thinks I said that, let's you know, give me the facts because I would tend to agree with King Slayer, you cannot move a traffic stop into a third party's house uninvited. Yeah, oh that would that also is not a close question. So I I hope I'm not on the record somewhere saying that. I certainly would not support my position if I did, nor do I think I actually said that.

SPEAKER_05 7:37

So I don't remember, I don't recall that conversation. Maybe he's talking about something he saw on the internet on you because you were all over the internet.

Deadly Force When Outnumbered

SPEAKER_07 7:45

So yeah, well, I'm happy to do it because the uh I do glitch a lot. I might have said can not and the knot fell off. Oh, I can leave some room for that. Possibly, but uh, I don't want him running around thinking I could that I said you can chase people because I'm sure I'll be cross-examined on that, and that certainly wouldn't be my position. Um, uh the other guy asked, uh, oh, where was he? A Marine for sure says, Can you use deadly force if two people jump you? You see that comment?

SPEAKER_05 8:13

Yep, I got it up there right now. Peter the pig, 6969, great name.

SPEAKER_07 8:18

Yeah, so uh if you're gonna ask that, ask that question in like in court or in a real case, you got to ask, well, who are the people? How big are they? What's what's their physical size? What's it's all about vulnerability, right? So if the two people together put you in a position where you feel where you reasonably believe you're facing a threat of death or serious bodily injury, meaning you're vulnerable, then the size matters, the numbers matter, whether you're injured or fatigue, you got to pull them into the deep waters and start going through all the totality of the circumstances. This came up in the case recently in Montana where obviously if two children who count as persons are jumping you, you probably ought not shoot them, right? Right. Um, obviously that's a ridiculous example, but the people who like to testify against the police frequently will use the example of children or octogenarians or wheelchair, we'll two people who are wheelchair bound. And I'm like, okay, what cop is shooting two wheelbound wheelchair-bound people who are attacking them? Like, where was that fact pattern? Um, so they kind of go off to the extremes, but there are certainly examples, and we have cases right now where multiple suspects, grown adult males, uh attacking a single person where you can make a strong argument it was justified to use deadly force.

SPEAKER_05 9:35

Yeah, yeah. Um, I think Kingslayer said, You said it on the first live stream here. Kingslayer, here's my advice write out the whole thing. Don't just keep fragmenting points. It's gonna make it impossible for us to even try to address that question or whatever it is you're saying that he talked about, none of us remember it. Um, doesn't mean it didn't happen, but context, get the background. What was the story? What were we talking about? So we can fully articulate whatever point you're trying to accuse him of.

SPEAKER_07 10:08

Yeah, well, he's it sounds like we're gonna violently agree because if he thinks that you can't just take a traffic stop into a third party's house, I also believe that. So we might be in agreement, which would be good. Um, there was a cop that shot a man in a wheelchair at Walmart. Yeah, I saw that.

SPEAKER_05 10:24

Um yeah, yeah, that was that was a crazy one. I remember that one.

SPEAKER_07 10:28

Constitutional country girl, I don't mean to take over your podcast, but I'm loving these questions already. I want to get after it. Get after it. Country girl says I saw a video where a traffic stop was facilitated because someone asked for their cigarette out the window. Someone asked their cigarette for what crime could that be? Um, well, I saw one. Obviously, there's a there's a high-profile one where uh that was part of the case. The cigarette itself is not the crime. Uh the police can uh give lawful orders related to legitimate law enforcement purposes, like I don't want to be burned by that cigarette. And so they have to assume risk. Obviously, police let a lot of people smoke during traffic stops. They'll just hate it to put it in the ashtray. But as soon as they start using the cigarette to either make you maintain distance, blow smoke in your face, try to burn you with it, or if they're agitated with a you know, a cigarette, we've got cases where officers had their eyes burned, hands burned. And so they simply say, Hey, you need to put that cigarette out for me, or can you step out of the car, leave the cigarettes inside? Um, and then it's just a lawful order. So if they disobey the lawful order, it doesn't mean the lawful order had anything to do, the cigarette was illegal. It's the fact that under those circumstances, he gave a lawful order that she refused to comply with. So it's usually just a misdemeanor city ticket for disobeying.

Exigent Circumstances And Santana

SPEAKER_05 14:36

Gotcha. Um, I'm looking over, we're also on Instagram live right now. So I'm looking at a question that somebody asked, what are the exigent circumstances that would allow you to follow a fleeing suspect into a house? So I went down the ones that I remember off the top of my head emergency aid, um, hot pursuit, destruction of evidence, uh prevent escape, um, and safety, like uh imminent danger, serious bodily injury or death.

SPEAKER_07 15:03

Yeah, there's a case called USV Santana. It's a Supreme Court case. It says a person may not defeat an otherwise proper arrest by the expedient of running into a private residence. So if you initiate the arrest outside the car and they run inside a house, it's an invitation. It's a de facto invitation to follow them in and arrest them inside. Um, there's other cases where the the court has sort of narrowed it down in some jurisdictions where if it's a misdemeanor, they don't want you running into somebody's house over a misdemeanor. So fair enough. Um, but I think that's a federal district. I don't know that I don't recall that to be a Supreme Court distinction, but USB Santana was the one I can remember off the top of my head that uh you cannot defeat an otherwise proper arrest by the expedient of running into a private residence, whether it's yours or someone else's.

SPEAKER_05 15:51

Um so to clarify, Kingslayer said when I asked about Halo laws when someone is filming a stop in their own home, you said you can move the traffic stop into the third party's home, then you can arrest because of legal entry.

SPEAKER_07 16:07

No. No, I don't recognize that even as a concept. So if if if uh so I think we agree, you cannot do that.

SPEAKER_05 16:16

Okay. I was gonna say, if anything, maybe it was just a miscommunication. We didn't we didn't understand the question. We didn't we miss, we, we misunderstood each other. I don't know. Um but yeah, uh Freeman said, Vaughn, I've been bringing your testimony or I've been binging your testimonies on YouTube. I wish there were more videos out there. It's fascinating to me, and thank you for that.

AI In Courts And Policing

SPEAKER_07 16:40

Oh, you're welcome. It's nonstop, right? We are a recession proof industry. The worse things get, the better things get in terms of how much time we have to spend.

SPEAKER_05 16:51

AI is not going to affect our job. It'll affect it in more work, but it's not going to affect our job. Um, speaking of AI, great new movie out with Chris Pratt called Um Mercy. The whole concept is the courts have become AI and there are no more humans. Um, it was insane. I can see the technology going that way.

SPEAKER_07 17:17

They already saw a little bit of that in California. I don't know if you realize they they were using AI to do uh if I think I remember right, it was basically uh post-arrest, threat assessments, detention hearings, release, like parole release hearings to sort of assess the dangerousness. I'm like, wow, we're getting closer.

SPEAKER_05 17:36

Yeah, I mean, okay, let's have that discussion. AI in policing. I if you want things to be fair and objective and not have a human bias in it, it's gonna be a thing, it's gonna be possible. But the problem is gonna be the standard of measurement. How do you know?

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yep, and then I think enough checks and balance as well.

SPEAKER_07 18:00

Yeah, you can never take the human out, right? Garbage in, garbage out is the obviously the the AI mantra, but the uh at the end of the day, AI is phenomenal at organization. Like it will organize the information for you, uh, but ultimately you have to validate that, and then you gotta you gotta assess your own judgment because the prediction of it is it's always an educated guess, right? Future, future recidivism, you know, depending on which you know how much experience you have in life. I I tell you, some of the most uh cynical people, the parole officers, you know, the ones I I worked as a parole investigator for for a while, and uh they hold no illusions about rehabilitation, you know, they're just like, How are you doing today? Like, let's just focus on today.

SPEAKER_05 18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 18:49

Uh I'm not gonna predict because everybody brings their own triggers and thresholds for when they're willing to break weak again.

SPEAKER_05 18:57

Yeah, yeah. Dwayne Wolf said um on uh LinkedIn that AI has bias now. And you're not wrong. Fuck it, it hallucinates.

SPEAKER_07 19:05

That's Dwayne, that's Dwayne Wolf. Don't say Dwayne Wilson. I didn't say Wilson, I said Wilson. Yes, you did. I'll play it back. That's Dwayne Wolf. Did I say Wilson? Yeah, because I looked and I said that's not Dwayne Wolf. Oh, that's Dwayne uh Wolf.

SPEAKER_05 19:18

Wolf here in the we'll see in the comments in a second in a section. A second second.

SPEAKER_07 19:23

I can't play it back.

SPEAKER_05 19:24

We're live. But do you know who Dwayne Wolf is? Uh, not off the top of my head, sir.

SPEAKER_07 19:28

Yeah, he is one of the top use of force experts in the country. He is gracing us with his presence.

SPEAKER_05 19:33

He is remember you mean you you telling me that he doesn't hold a candle to you, but he's been telling me that.

SPEAKER_07 19:40

Yeah, Dwayne Wolf sits in a room and we all take notes, we just steal each other's ideas. He's fantastic. Yeah, we I just saw him up at the uh International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Conference, and uh yeah, I'm a huge fan of Dwayne Wolfe, so shout out.

SPEAKER_05 19:55

Nice, nice. I like it. Appreciate you being on. Uh Mr. Wolf. Um, just going through the comments here, trying to keep up. We don't have Alan tonight, so I don't have anybody to filter for me.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Uh Alan Alan is headed to the Texas Police Chiefs Conference, and I'm up here uh at Texas Public Safety Conference in Denton. I got Houston Gas sitting next to me. A lot of y'all got to meet him on uh previous podcasts. So if anybody's got any questions for Houston, he's also sitting over here.

Facial Recognition Limits And Policy

SPEAKER_05 20:24

Um Mr. Billfield asked if I covered the AI that got the identity wrong at the casino. I did not. Um so for those that don't know, there was uh an arrest that was made based solely off of AI's facial wreck. And they they have bad policy. This is one of the things with any new technology. It has to be backed by good policy before you should ever implement it. There was a big thing with body cameras when they first came out. Boston PD would not wear them. And it it wasn't for the reasons people thought. They thought that Boston was refusing to wear them because they were out doing dirty things and they didn't want to get caught doing that. That wasn't the case. The case was the department wanted them to go out and wear them and they didn't have any policy set in place yet. So what they were worried about is become an internal thing where they're on a witch hunt and trying to find any and all little violations for competitive edges to get moved up the ranks. And if you don't think cops do that shit, you'd be mistaken. Uh so um they were worried about policy before they implemented body cams. And I think that's smart. I think you should have good policy in place. So going over to the casino thing with the AI, where I'm at, any AI that's used, if you uh facial rec, for instance, if you're going to use facial rec, one of the policies that's in place that I think is phenomenal is that it's got to be attached to a case number, so it's got to be a part of a criminal investigation. Has to be done by a third party, can't be done by the cops, it's got to be done by our analyst. Um you have to send the request in officially, so you can't do it on the fly. Um unless they're working. Then you can go knock on the door. Hey, I need this is really important. Can you do this case? Um but it's got to be attached to a case number. Uh and then it doesn't matter if it's a thousand percent thinking that this is the person. It is never PC for an arrest. It is an investigative tool to help lead you to more things that you will need to create your own PC. The video or the the facial wreck does not in itself count as PC for an arrest ever. It doesn't matter if it's a hundred percent. So I think that that's very wise. Just like if you get a license plate hit, a license plate reader hit that says, hey, this car has a warrant. It is your job to take that plate, run it through NCIC, and verify that the license plate reader was correct. You shouldn't be going after cars based just on the license plate reader.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

And then once you find the car, you can must verify again, make sure the 28 or the license plate is correct, and you're gonna verify that before you even initiate a stop.

SPEAKER_05 23:03

Correct. Yeah. So um there is a ton of comments today, guys. I apologize if I can't catch up. Don't feel bad about sending your question a couple times.

Pretext Stops And Discretion Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_07 23:13

Um you got uh constitutional or uh sorry, a constitutional country girl following up with her question too. So while you're looking for the next one, uh this one here, uh yeah, that ash from the back. I don't know about unlawfully searched the car because I see that's a that's your con that's a conclusion. I don't know why it was unlawful, it may have been, but the ash from the back car. I think if you've got courts in your jurisdiction that think that's littering, then you got PC for the stop. Reasonable suspicion, PC for the stop. Um, I don't know that I've ever stopped anybody or seen a stop anywhere ever for ash out of the back, flicking your ashtray. I've seen it for flicking the butt out. Yeah, people get pulled over and be like, hey, you can't be flipping that out, you know, whatever. And usually they just haven't, and they won't even have them pick it up. They're just like, look, you can't do that. Um, but the first question is, are there jurisdictions where it's illegal to throw your butt out the window? Yeah, it's littering and it's reasonable suspicion for the stop. You can stop them, whether they're in a car or on foot. The ash itself, I mean, I don't think I would have got away with that in my jurisdiction. I don't know anybody who tried to do that, but apparently those officers were pretty comfortable that in their jurisdiction they would get away with that for PC, which meant they probably had tried it and tested it, and the court agreed with them. Uh as for what then made it illegal, I don't I don't know the facts of the rest of the thing. But um, that's where you get into that. Just because you can doesn't mean you have to, right?

SPEAKER_08 24:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 24:41

I don't say just because you can doesn't mean you should, because that's a that's an ethics issue. That's that's individual discretion. But I do say frequently, hey guys, just because you can legally doesn't mean you have to, so let's start doing this start exercising some discretion. And look at what the trade-offs might be. And then you get into the whole like you get a car leaving a known drug house and you got no violations on it whatsoever. And all of a sudden he flicks his ass out the window and you're in a jurisdiction where that's illegal. And you're like, well, I've never stopped anybody before. Now I'm going to stop them for it. It's an objective test. Unless as long as you're not stopping them based on a protected class or protected status, courts will be like, it's a it's an objective test. And if you if you as long as you had a violation, it doesn't matter if you've never done it before, you get to stop them. All of this works against police community relations, clearly, right? It all looks bad. Um, but you know, there's a lot of part of the communities that are like, yeah, if you're gonna get drugs off the if you're gonna get dope off the street and you did it based on an actual legal violation, even if you've never done it before, good for you. You're at least following the law and the process of the law. Other ones would be like, you can see the look on cops' faces, like, are you kidding me? Like, really? This is what we're doing to stopping cars for for uh throwing your ashes out.

SPEAKER_05 26:03

But yeah, um, I'm curious if people can see the chat. I just clicked a button and shit happened. Oh lord. Oh lord. Stand by. I messed things up on my end. Um keep answering questions there, Von. You're you're helping me out.

SPEAKER_07 26:24

So I got one on uh when it cited a case and I don't know the case, so I'm trying to figure out what that is so I can answer intelligently. Some Gonzalez case.

SPEAKER_05 26:33

There we go. I fix it. Um one of the questions I got over on Instagram was so the plate readers are not connected to NCIC. Yes, they are connected to NCIC, but they only update so many times a day. So it's not like where the NCIC, I don't even know how often NCIC gets updated. I would assume pretty regularly.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

On add-on and removal, it's within four to five minutes, like of a stolen stolen vehicle. It takes four to five minutes for the for the removal to be taken out. Uh and then add-on, it also takes four to five minutes once a dispatcher enters a stolen item. Uh, we had to test that a few times because we were having major issues with it, and that's what, a year and a half old. So I imagine it's any worse or better by now. Yeah.

Recreating Evidence On Body Cam

SPEAKER_05 27:17

So yeah, so Johnny uh over on Instagram, um, yes, NCIC, it is connected, it just doesn't update as regularly for license plate readers and stuff like that. Um King Slayer said Baltimore cops got caught planning evidence on the body worm camera when body cams first started. The PD said that the cops were just recreating where they found the drugs. Um, I I can tell you that I've done that. I've had that happen where I've had to literally lunge into a vehicle to prevent somebody from trying to reach for, I didn't know what it was at the time, it ended up being dope. I thought he was reaching for a gun. Um, grabbed it, pulled it away. We got him out, we got him handcuffed, and now I needed to photograph and explain where I found things. So I placed the dope back where it was located, and then took a picture and said, That's where I originally saw it. That's how it happened. So that that legitimately happens. I've done it. Um, but Vaughn, you uh you look like you had something to say on it.

SPEAKER_07 28:20

No, I think it's right. You just have to be clear that that's what you did. You recreated it. So you can't take the photo and then try to claim in the court or in your affidavit that the photo indicates where it was located at the time of the stop. It's as it's generally in the location. I had collected it based on you know the the need to preserve evidence. I put it back there to show the relative position, which is no different than if you described it. Well, where was it in the car? Well, it was kind of halfway under the seat, halfway not. So if you just put it back the way you best remember it and take a photo and then document that's what you did, that's all you're doing is the same thing as if you were using words to do it. You get in trouble where, like there was a shooting case where the guy pulls the gun, gets shot, drops the gun, keeps running, and falls. Well, of course, the officer picks the gun up right away because he's not gonna just leave the gun there. And then afterwards, he goes back and puts the gun back down on the ground. Well, of course, the media only shows him going back and putting the gun on the ground. So whether he was gonna say that's where it was, and I took a photo of it and I never touched it, well, that would be a problem. If all he was gonna say was, Well, this is where I picked it up from, and so I put it after I secured him, I put it back to document precisely the distance from the body from from where the gun had landed, and just say that's what you're doing. Um, but a lot of people will tell you, once you pick it up, just don't put it back. Don't do it, don't try to recreate, cause too many troubles. Um my position is if you do do that, um note it. Note exactly why you did it, and then it's it was and that you had picked it up and moved it.

SPEAKER_05 29:58

Yeah, absolutely. Um trying to find a video real quick. I can't find it, but um, yeah. Yeah, I in I like what you said there, Vaughn, too. Is that it's definitely something that you shouldn't do anymore. When you know, when when we were doing it, it body cams were brand new. All this stuff was new. It was it was just how you were trained. It's just one of the things they said, hey, well, if you're gonna grab it, make sure you take a picture of where you found it, the general area, but you have to annotate it in your report, just like you said.

SPEAKER_07 30:31

Jerry's got a good point. Let's uh Jin uh Jerry Engelhout. Why would you put why would you put it back? Took a picture first. Usually, if it's crowded, it's the preservation of evidence, and in particular, it's a weapon, there's other people around. You don't want the other passengers or the bystander, anybody to pick that up, move it, yeah, secure. I've seen, I mean, it depends on where you're working. I had a guy shoot at me one time, and while I was chasing him, he had thrown the gun. By the time I came back, because I wasn't gonna slow down stop to get the gun at that point, it was gone. And so we had to use our our gang intel network to figure out who picked it up, where it went, and we ended up finding it again and getting the full story of who the the the uh the girlfriends of the gang man gang members came out uh and started destroying the evidence or seizing, you know, taking the evidence, trying to hide the guns.

SPEAKER_08 31:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 31:21

Um, so that's one reason. If it's a crowded area, if it's just you and the and and the suspect, there may not be a reason. It just may be you don't like running and leaving a gun on the ground.

unknown 31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 31:32

Why would you put it back? You put it back again because sometimes the relative distance matters, and they're going to ask you anyway, and you're going to be allowed to describe it. And so putting it back and taking a photo of it just adds to your description. You just got to be clear that's what you did. But that would be those would be some of the reasons why you would want to put it back.

SPEAKER_05 31:54

Um, Steve Pappy Pappy, uh Papinfoos said, back to hot pursuit. Lang vs. California. SCOTUS agree that pursuit for misdemeanor DUI driver into a garage was a no-go. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 32:09

Yeah, that was the misdemeanor. Yeah, there was another one that was a misdemeanor fight out in the front yard, same thing. You don't like the misdemeanors. Um, the uh do you know who Pappy is? Steve Papp.

SPEAKER_05 32:21

I know the name, I just can't put listen. This is gonna be a thing all night. You can say, hey, who's the lead singer for Zeppelin? I'm gonna be like, I don't fucking know. As soon as you say the name, they're like, oh yeah, yeah. I know now.

SPEAKER_07 32:31

I don't you guys are doing something right if you're bringing on Steve, Pappy, and and Dwayne Wolf. Those are some those are some heavy hitters. Steve is phenomenal. Pappy is another phenomenal use of force, but you guys don't have him on your show. You guys have both either one of those, and you guys will lose no steps. Those guys are fantastic.

SPEAKER_05 32:49

They heard the poster boy was gonna be on tonight.

SPEAKER_07 32:51

That's they just yeah, they're but they're trying to fact check me. I bet my I bet if I look at my text, they're probably like, you don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_05 33:00

That's awesome. Uh hey, we'd be more than happy to have him on the show. I'm down. Hey, if you vouch for him, I'm in. I mean, shit, we had you on with Mr. Billfold. Why wouldn't we have them on?

SPEAKER_07 33:11

Oh, let them debate Mr. Billfold. Oh, we could you don't get to stand alone on this show until you debate Mr. Billfold. That's that would be the filter.

SPEAKER_05 33:19

I'm down. I'm down. I think that would be uh wonderful. We could it could be QI number two. Could talk about qualified immunity the second time. Um Andy said, so now that's going to be the story every time cops plant evidence. Well, no, the problem is, Andy, it's not that cops can't plant evidence. Like that's that still could be a thing. I'm not I'm not taking that part away from you. However, there's cameras everywhere now. Cops are used to body cams now. Things have changed. The culture of policing's changed, a lot of things have changed. We're not quite as worried about certain things that we used to be worried about because the preservation of evidence and stuff like that, we can see a lot more. Our cameras catch a lot more. So I I don't know. I I'm not saying that that's gonna be a story every time, but you also have to be able to prove it, show it. Like for me, my body cam showed me reaching in and grabbing this shit. You couldn't see what I was grabbing, but you could hear what was going on, and I said it. I said, I had to get that stuff before they got it. I was like, they were trying to get to it. I said, so I'm gonna go back. My body camera never stopped. I said, All right, now I'm gonna go back, kind of take a general picture of where it was at, and then go from there. Um, so it's again.

SPEAKER_07 34:37

He's not wrong. Look, every that's something everybody has to realize. If you hire corrupt cops after the background investigation, after the the the polygraphs, after the drug screening, the psyche vows, after all the interviews, if you get corrupt humans as cops, they can steal, they can lie, they can arrest innocent people, and they cameras aren't gonna stop it. You can get around the cameras, you can plant evidence, you can get witnesses to testify against people they know are innocent. All these things have happened throughout the history, and so never were we gonna sit here and say there's some sort of magic way to prevent corrupt cops. Yeah. Because if you're corrupt, you're corrupt, you know. And and we've all seen it. I mean, one of my FTOs went to prison uh and needed to.

SPEAKER_05 35:24

That explains a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 35:27

Not to get into that, that's a story for another day, but he was one of he was actually a phenomenal FTO, he's a phenomenal trainer. Yeah, he just got himself jammed up in certain ways, and his answers to those problems were not the right answers.

SPEAKER_05 35:39

But uh he was more of a he was more of a do as I say, not as I do type of guy.

SPEAKER_07 35:46

He was uh yeah. Well, he was better than he was luckily for us. Uh none of us knew what was going on because I was interviewed. I was like, who, what, did what?

Muting Body Cams And Always-On

SPEAKER_05 35:57

That's a good story. Stick with that. Stick with that. I like that. All right. Country Girl said, Speaking of body worn cameras, um, that's either Mr. B or Marine Bloods. Uh, I think you guys got to specify when Marine Bloods and Mr. B are both on, like MB could be either one of those. But um, she said, I think there should be criminal charges for muting, tampering with evidence, no reason to do it. Um to do it except uh conspiring. If it is if it's released, it is redacted to protect personal info. Um, so I've addressed this before on here, uh, but it's always a good topic. I agree. I think there's no excuse for muting body cams anymore. Um, there may have been some good arguments when we first got them that we hadn't quite uh you know worked out yet. Again, body cams are still technically kind of in their infancy as far as police work goes. We're still working out kinks and stuff like that. But no, you should not be muting body cameras. I think anything that needs to be redacted should be done by a team after the fact, um, so everything can be preserved as evidence if determined it needed to be. Um I don't think I don't think we should be muting anything.

SPEAKER_07 37:11

I you know the the problems we're seeing, it's not really about the muting. Sometimes we're seeing these cameras that are muted. Um these cases come in, you get a guy who's being shot at and he's facing like immediate threat, and they're focused on the threat, and like halfway through they they will activate their camera, right? And you ask them, and most policies have that built in, right? Right in exit and circumstances, your your primary focus is not to activate your camera. So a lot of them have automatic activation, right? You pull your gun from your holster, automatically activates. You turn on your red lights, automatically. And that's because your focus of attention, understandably so, is not going to be on administrative requirements. It's not policy requirements, it's survival, it's focusing on a threat. And it's gotten to be ridiculous. Like some of the arguments they make where somebody clearly tries to kill the officer, the officer is clearly responding to that, and they want to write them up and even terminate them or charge them criminally in some states for not activating their body cam prior to the engagement. The the focus of attention, the multitasking or the task switching is it's not it's not realistic to expect any human to focus on that administrative requirement. So, yeah, it should be encouraged. There should be a great explanation for when it doesn't happen. Uh, I think every politician, 20 every time they're on duty, every one of them should have 24-7 surveillance on their phones, in their offices, over list listening to every conversation they have. Um, and so these ones who are advancing the idea of cops need to have their body cams on at all time, need to be recording at all time, don't mute it. I'm like, great. You know, we're we're pretty close to that now. Um and the politicians who are engaged in these discussions need to be doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 39:07

Amen, brother. Amen. Um, I want to give a shout out to Cucumber. It looks like he upped his membership again. Uh, appreciate that. He said, I'm taking diversion. Uh love it. Um, but uh there was a comment. Kingslayer said, but you think but you still think corrupt cops acting corruptly should have the benefit of the doubt when it comes to investigating them for their corrupt actions. I don't know who said that at all. I think everybody should have the get the benefit of the doubt, period.

SPEAKER_07 39:37

But well the law kind of requires it, right? Yeah, that too.

SPEAKER_05 39:40

I I give I give everybody, I just follow where the facts lead me. However, you have seen us on the show countless times see corrupt behavior, and we condemn the corrupt behavior as it's developing in the body cam reviews that we're watching.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

And and just so everybody is under aware, there's some body camera technology that is coming out and has been for the past couple years. Um, you know, there there's a you have to go back to the department policies and procedures. So I'm not going to say the manufacturer's name and the body cameras, but there's some uh that are leading the game out there to where if you're if your body camera is in a standby mode and you do get into a situation to where you're a little late activating that because either rounds down range or taking cover because you're taking on fire. And I'm talking some serious priority one stuff, you can depixelate some of that standby mode stuff on the camera and put it into an official recorded capacity uh to where you're getting it's not quite 30 frames a second. I what is it, Erica? Maybe six or uh fifteen frames a second. It's less, but at least you're getting that visual path of what's going on. Um and they're getting better and better and better in that. As long as you leave it in a standby mode, they can actually go back and recover some of that.

SPEAKER_05 40:56

Yeah. Um, to Andy's question, he said, then why is it ever off? He's referring to body cameras. Um, one, the tech isn't there yet for them to be 24-7, um, or for a whole shift, even, which is weird because uh this is one thing I don't understand. Somehow these cameras are able to record stuff when it's not being then when it's allegedly not recording at all. And my battery will be damn near dead by the end of a 12-hour shift or 10-hour shift, and I wasn't recording the whole time. If you're recording the whole time, it drains the battery even faster.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Very fast.

SPEAKER_05 41:34

So if you record the whole time, then the things last in six to eight hours.

SPEAKER_07 41:38

Yeah, and it's the storage, right? That's what you say. It's not just the battery, but the storage of the video is what costs the agencies, right? Not the cameras themselves, not the even the batteries. It's and so they don't want to record all of that. Now, I think they'll get there someday with your entire shift. I don't know, and again, I'll I'll probably be like anybody else. When once you have the police recording their entire shift, uh uh make sure our politicians are doing the same thing, it will be exhausting. Yeah, it's exhaust, it's like being in front of an audience all day, every day, everything you say being publicly scrutinized. And we've seen that where they go back and they'll say, you know, you know, I guess you guys cuss on this. I'm not obviously I'm not fuck yeah, we do, Von. Do it, buddy. But you know, you got a guy, he's by himself in the car and he's looking what the fuck is this guy doing? Yeah, look at this fucking asshole, right? And nobody's hearing him. He's just like seeing a guy about kill somebody and his his he's emoting, right? And then all of a sudden he gets on the radio, he gets professional again, but they'll back it up and they'll put that in to show that he had some bias and he was unprofessional, even though he said those words in his car by himself with no one around. You've got to remember remember you are 24-7 under scrutiny, and that is exhausting. It's it's yeah, yep. Um, and constant public public speaking.

SPEAKER_05 43:01

I want to give a shout out to Craig. Craig dropped 10 memberships. Uh, appreciate you, brother. Thank you very much. Uh, he said he said, dang, MB didn't get one. Uh he got one, he just he didn't get one from you this time. So um, but because he has a current membership, and we you don't have to drink, but you can if you want. Um, let me see. Uh Ariel said, My biggest question is when courts say a reasonable person, what is a reasonable person? There's a lot of reasonable gun laws in states. Vaughn, that's a you question, buddy.

SPEAKER_07 43:39

Uh they don't, I mean, a reasonable uh yeah, I I can try to figure out the definition of reasonable person, but it's one of ordinary intelligence. Um, but reasonable is objective in that it must be viewed through the lens of the uh of the person using force. If you're talking about force center, the person using force um with similar education, training, experience, and reasonable inferences, right? So you have to put yourself in that position and determine if you are similarly situated, does that decision fall within a range of reasonable options, which is basically part of part of partly described by the judgment of the jury in the court to make that determination? But it's understanding there's reasonable people can disagree. There's not one singular reasonable person, it's just falls within a bucket of reasonableness, and it's usually someone of of ordinary, it's of a sober, ordinary intelligence from the perspective of the person making a decision based on training, education, and experience, but it's an objective test with some subjective sort of filters on it.

SPEAKER_05 44:43

Okay. Um, there was a another question. Um, oh, Andy said, I don't buy the excuses. Sorry, and I think he's referring to the body cameras not being able to be on 24-7. I I'm not, brother, I'm I'm not asking you to buy it as an excuse or whatever. I'm just telling you what it is. Just tech's not there yet. Just don't have the ability, and we don't have the money for the storage. I mean, where I'm at, we're talking 2,000 cops. 2,000 cops recording 24-7? Holy shit. And you're not just talking about that. You're talking about dash cameras. So now you got the dash cameras that are recording. So um, and then it goes into this is the other thing. Now you've the debate right now is cops holding data. So if my body cam is out there, because my body cam is going to be seeing license plates and all that other shit, if you don't think body cams can't read license plates, you're wrong. Um, if you don't think that they're gonna be able to take photos and videos of all of the stuff that they see on their body camera, now they're holding that all that 24-hour evidence or or however long their shift is. A whole shift's worth of stuff. And people are already complaining about cops holding too much data. So you can't have both. That's going to be a problem. I'm with you. I wish they would be able to record the whole shift. That'd be wonderful. Um, you do need the ability to shut it off. You gotta have that ability. Because if I'm going to take a piss, you're not watching me take a piss. If I had a bad burrito that day, you definitely don't want to be in there with me. Don't get me wrong, I'm the type of guy, I'll leave the camera on, I'll make y'all suffer with me. Somebody's gonna be auditing that video and going, oh my god, what in the hell did he eat?

SPEAKER_00 46:32

And there's not even a not even a zoom function on it.

SPEAKER_05 46:35

And I'm gonna be Morgan Freeman narrating that whole thing. Oh, I had a burrito today. Shouldn't have had that burrito. So be careful what you ask for. Um uh country girl said, like our cell phones. Always listening. Yeah, exactly. Andy said, I don't care about the cost. Yeah, you might not care. But I tell you what, there's a lot of citizens that would when they see the bill. They're gonna be like, what are we paying for? Um Devil Pup said, How body cams work? The camera is technically on in capturing video, but it deletes the footage every 30 seconds unless the officer double taps and record button. Um I am not a body worn camera expert, so I couldn't debate that. Um why don't they do a mid shift swap? Well, now you're talking about a body camera, you know, you're gonna have two. So each officer is gonna have to have two. That's going to increase the cost. Everything's cost, guys. Everything is about money.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

And I worked 12-hour shifts primarily, and there's a lot of times when I went on my lunch break, I was able to take that body camera off me, stick it in the charger in the car if we had a lot of calls that day because I was doing so much recording and I'd sit there and eat that burrito, like Eric was saying, in my car, and let my friggin' uh camera get 30 minutes of battery tender just to uh be able to complete the shift. Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_05 48:05

And and that's the other thing. The longer they go, like my body camera is it's kind of old. I mean, considering um, but they degrade too. The battery degrades over time. So um country girl said exact Andy, we the taxpayers for it. Taxpayers pay for it, yeah, exactly. Um let me see, what else do we got? Um, we do want to get to some videos today. Do you have something you want me to point out, guys?

SPEAKER_00 48:35

I was gonna say Marine Blood said, Eric, I do want to uh debate you on the I believe it was running plates, uh and and I'll beat you in the debate or something like that. Uh I mean that we could maybe set that up for another time, but I think that'd be a fun debate.

Curtilage, Permits, ID Demands

SPEAKER_05 48:50

Hell yeah, why not? What do you want to debate on license plate readers? Um, I'm always down. Uh I love them. I think they're a great tool. Again, these tools have to be backed by good policy, checks and balances, because there's always going to be a cop that ruins it for everybody. So um I already know stories of cops checking on their ex-girlfriends and checking on their ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend and stuff like that. They're out there. Um Mike Cucumber dropped ten dollars in the super chat. Let's get him on here. Let's see what he has to say. He said, I had a bonfire. Uh cop asked for ID. I refused. He never detained me, let me walk into the house as he walked back to the patrol car. Thought Florida versus Jardines gave uh same 4A protections as being at home. So he asked for ID, you refused, he never detained you. So he can ask you. I'm not sure what the qu it does that seem like a question. Am I misreading that?

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Was it was the bonfire on private property within a municipality that had a city city ordinance against bonfire that received a call, he's coming out, gonna possibly issue a city ordinance violation for the bonfire. There's so many different scenarios that this could go through. We we've got to know full picture where it's at, all that, before we can give you any type of valid answer on it.

unknown 50:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 50:13

Yeah, he's talking about uh the cartilage of the house. What would I be Jay Jardines was a was a drug sniffing case where, but it's not even the probably the best one on point for what he's what he's describing. He's the question, I think, is whether or not the Fourth Amendment protects your cartilage the same as it protects your house. And the general answer is yes, it does. And so they have to have consent or they have to have an exigency, or there are a couple other exceptions, like the public safety exceptions, which would be an exigency, or uh a de facto uh invitation. So if you've turned your front porch into or your house into an open party, it becomes almost a public place. So there's some arguments where if you have a house party and you got a lot of people coming and the police can come in as well. If anybody else can come in, then the police get to. Now you get to tell them to leave once they're there, but the initial entry um may not be illegal. Coming onto your property, coming onto your cartilage, one of the biggest exceptions is if the police remain where the postman could remain, right? That's sort of the the general rule. So if they if you have a sidewalk and they come up the sidewalk um to your front door to knock on your front door, then there's not there's not a Fourth Amendment violation. But let's if the police are just coming into your yard and you see them coming and you open your door and say, Hey, I don't want you at my house, I need you out of my pro off my property, and they remain without any of those exceptions, that is actually a Fourth Amendment violation because you've communicated to them that whatever whatever uh implied consent they thought they had under the cartilage rule or under the uh postman rule, uh, you just removed it because consent can be revoked. So while there might be implied consent, there's express revocation of implied consent. So what we would tell people is, you know, put the no trespassing, and this includes police, you may not walk up my driveway sign on your fence. And it sort of undercut or sort of expressed your expectation of privacy, and it removed the implied consent by expressly revoking it. Um, so there's a lot there, but I think that's what he's focusing on. Uh he had a bomb in his front yard. Why could they come in there? Now, if there's an ongoing crime, that's the other exigency. You can enter, you can enter a house without a warrant or curtilage without a warrant under extent circumstances, which is you have reason to believe there'll be destruction of evidence, flight from the scene, or escape. So basically it's weapons, evidence, and escape. Uh if that stuff is contraband, right? So you can legally have a gun, they can't come out and say, Well, we thought you had a gun. But if you're smoking weed in your front yard, for example, and it's uh illegal to smoke weed in your jurisdiction, you don't get to sit there on the other side of your fence and be like, you can't come in here. They they can come and enforce it. Um, so the bonfire is a little trickier because I don't know, like like Banning was talking about, is the bonfire illegal on its face? Um in which case they would have a real uh they would have a uh legitimate government interest in identifying the persons at the bonfire who are currently violating the law and they can freeze the scene and say nobody move and start asking for IDs. Some jurisdictions, when they demand the ID in investigations, you have to give it to them or it's a separate crime. So a lot of your listeners might be in a jurisdiction where no, I don't have to give them my ID. If you if you're in a jurisdiction where there's a state statute that says you must give an ID, a valid ID, um upon demand to police, or there's a penalty, a criminal penalty, well then you do. It'd be a crime not to. Other ones say the police can demand it, but you don't have to give it. The penalty, not the penalty, but the consequences of not turning over your ID is that they can then extend the the duration of the of the investigation. They can just keep you there until they ID you. And that's what some of the statute will say is they can keep you there for sufficient time to positively ID you. So that means they're gonna talk to the neighbors, they're gonna get booking photos if you've been booked in before, they're gonna run driver's license examples, they're gonna try to find ways to identify you. And because you refuse to identify yourself, you that you lose the right to complain about how long it took to do that. And then there's other ones that say they can demand it, uh, you don't have to give it, in which case there's it's just stop or I'll say stop again. Uh but you gotta make sure you know which one of those jurisdictions you're in because that is literally state by state, city by city.

SPEAKER_05 54:39

Mike updated. Uh, he dropped another 10 bucks in the super chat, so you didn't have to do that, but I appreciate you. Thank you very much. Um, he said, got charged with obstruction, paid an attorney three grand, didn't want to fight for me, take taking diversion. City did have permit requirements. Long story short, not worth fighting for your rights. To help you at all, Vaughn. Getting charged with obstruction.

SPEAKER_07 55:07

Well, yeah, because it sounds like there was he was in a jurisdiction where he was required to turn it over, in which case failure to turn it over must have met their elements for obstruction. A lot of these things I wouldn't guess on because it's so jurisdiction dependent. So you you learn your jurisdiction as a cop, and you'll say, Well, if I demand ID from someone, they don't turn it over to me, it's likely been prosecuted thousands of times before successfully. And so, yeah, you would charge them with the relevant crime of interference or obstruction. A lot of times, though, for us, you might get a you might only get one of those charges if you lied about it. So not saying anything would be okay, but as soon as you lie about it, then it becomes interference or obstruction. And what you got to be very careful of is there's some jurisdictions as well. If I'm investigating a felony, but you don't know it, you think I'm investigating a misdemeanor, but I'm actually investigating a felony and you engage in obstruction, it's felony obstruction. And so somebody's running from you because they think they're shoplifting. Um, I am chasing you because I think you stole a car, that running would ultimately end up being classified by the by the nature of the crime being investigated, not the nature of the crime for which you're running, which I always thought was nonsense. Yeah, but that's how that's how it charged out.

Why Court Can Feel Unreal

SPEAKER_05 56:28

Yeah, Mike uh Mike dropped another 10 bucks on us and he said, I lost sleep, gone through an emotional roller coaster. Want to let people know while they are theoret there are theoretical arguments that can be made, reality is courts don't really care about that. And I will tell you, I've seen that in in some courts, not my personal courts where I'm at, but in other states, I've seen that type of shit where you just they're small town courts, they don't get pressed by anybody ever, and they do kind of make up their own shit sometimes. Uh, I don't know if you've seen that, Vaughn, but I've seen some crazy stuff where I'm just like, how does a judge have the right to ever do that?

SPEAKER_07 57:06

Yeah, that's why I don't litigate anymore. Um, because what happens in court looks not rarely looks anything like what happens in real life. And the the if you're the guy involved in the incident, like if it's a domestic and you're involved in domestic, only you and the the the lady you're involved with the domestic know what it was about and know who started it, and know all the officer who shows up is one step removed. By the time you make it to court, you are so far removed that you have a prosecutor and defensor just making up a story and seeing which one is better at convincing the jury of their story. Now, you hope that their story gets close to the reality of what occurred based on their interviews of the witnesses and the forensic evidence. But I've seen so many times, especially well, one as a litigator, but two as an expert or as a witness, where you're sitting up there and you're just like listening to them accuse you of stuff that you have the benefit of knowing it's not true, but they're convincing a jury that it is, and and you realize helplessly, like the jury can buy it, you know, it has nothing to do, it's not true. And then when you're the cop involved in the incident, if you're the one making the arrest or you're the one involved in the fight, um, and then you get to court and you have people accusing you of all sorts of you know being racist, abusive, or corrupt, or whatever it happens to be, and you're like, look, I I didn't think of any of those things. Really, I just was driving and the guy had a tag light out or failed to use his turn to I pulled him over. I had no idea what his race was, but you're gonna sit there in court and listen to them accuse you of all sorts of things. And after a while, you just remain calm because you know there's nothing you could do except that's not true. You know, there's no rebuttal to what you what you were thinking, other than, yeah, that's that's not what happened. Yep. Kings you see it all the time. You do not want to take your case to a jury. I don't care which side. The prosecution and the defense do not want your cases to go to juries because it often has nothing to do with the reality of what occurred.

Predator Stings And Victim Rights

SPEAKER_05 58:59

Yeah, Kingslayer brings up a good point. He said, Um, most courts don't care about the law. Look at the reason Afroman trial. The law says loser pays the court fees, but the judge said Afroman has to pay half of all the court fees. Crazy. Crazy. That is nuts. So I want to switch gears a little bit. I actually um turrible times. What you got something, Von?

SPEAKER_07 59:22

No, I saw your super chat popped up there for four years.

SPEAKER_05 59:25

Okay, I'll get yeah, I'm gonna get that right after this one. Um, terrible times. I I think that's a shout-out to uh who's that bat? Charles Barkley. I think that's a Charles Barkley reference to that name. Um, but says, uh, so what about enablers for I'm gonna assume that means he's he wrote PDFs, which is great, pedos um and snuff films. Uh I'm gonna kind of I'm not gonna address your question directly in the way that your mind is probably going. In my brain, one of the things that I've been seeing a lot lately, Vaughn, I don't know if you keep up with this. I follow these guys that set up pedophiles. And I there are there's a ton of them now. And recently they caught a cop in Florida, uh, been on the department like 15, 20 years. Um, they do really good job. They they get all the evidence lined up, they and they go do the meetup, they get these people to admit it on camera. Like it's great. They don't most of the ones I watch don't do anything to them, they just wait for the cops to get there. But lately, what I have been seeing is cops making excuses to not make the arrest. Even though these guys have everything that I mean, I mean everything. Everything that you would need. And I'm like, holy shit, how are we not making the arrest here? I wouldn't want the judge to tell me that that I can't make that arrest. That that's all I'd want. Even if it was on the border, I'm gonna make that arrest, and then I'm gonna break my my affidavit. It's gonna go in front of the judge, and judge's gonna say, Ah, you don't have the PC. And then then it's out of my hands. But when you see all the stuff that these guys are presenting where they've got the chat, they've got the guy on camera saying, Well, yeah, that's what I said, but I meant this, and like they got everything, and they're not making the arrest. Have you seen this stuff on?

SPEAKER_07 1:01:15

Yeah, the only the only thing I would add to that, I prosecuted those cases in a lot of child sex cases and sexual assault cases. And here's the thing that makes that hard. Um, the victims in some jurisdictions have victim rights, like actual statutory victim rights, which means as soon as you make that arrest, you've triggered a process that now involves the victim who may not want to be involved at all. Like they give the victim a lot of leeway of whether they prosecute the case. Now, why that's important and why it requires statutes is because typically, if somebody gets robbed legally, the victim, as we think of it, is the person who got robbed, right? Right. They're not the victim, they're not the actual victim. This the state is the actual victim. We call them the victim, they're just witnesses to a crime against the state, right? Statutes are crimes against the state. The offense against the individual goes civilly, right? And so you can, like a domestic, you can say all day long, I don't want to prosecute my husband. It's literally not your choice unless some statute has been passed that gives you that sort of discretion to shut down a case. Well, that has been there's been a lot of strength in that in sexual assault victims, particularly child victims, where you have to have a discussion with the parents, you've got to have this that you know, you have to have psychologists get involved with the child, and you got to determine what level of involvement do these people actually want to have in the official administration of justice because they might not want to have any. So you might have an officer who's like, Yeah, last time I made an arrest, I got my hand slapped because we didn't consider the victim. The victim didn't want this publicized, it isn't want this thing formally entered in. And so you don't want to trigger potentially you have you run the risk of triggering the initiation of the system. Now, you know, that's going to be prosecution dependent and see what safeguards are in place. In the military, they had pretty good safeguards, they had um restricted reporting, you know, so the victim could file a restricted report, which did not trigger the administrative process, but what it did do was authorize the police to collect the evidence, to maintain the evidence, to store it in case the victim changed their mind. Um and so those protections, and again, you'd have to deep dive. I'm gonna give the 65,000-foot like one more thing to think about, sort of thing.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:42

Because the uh the uh I I saw one that I was prosecuting where the the female victim, I'll just say she was she was sexually assaulted in the most horrific ways over and over again. And when she told us about it, we initiated the investigation. She was 100% committed to prosecuting her husband. Um, it was her husband who was who was raping her. Um, and then she changed her mind and she shut the whole thing down. And once she shut the whole thing down, now you have to say, well, he's a military member. Can we still kick him out of the military? We can't prosecute him because the victim doesn't want him prosecuted. But does she really get a say on whether we keep this guy who we have lots of evidence, raped this woman and others? Um, do we keep him in the military? And so that ended up being a big deal because you can all, your audience could probably guess what I did. I worked, I took every step to get this guy kicked out of the military.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:44

Um, so you got you got those considerations. I don't know what jurisdiction each jurisdiction is going to probably handle that a little bit differently, but that is one more sort of twist to what the police at least need to consider in their jurisdiction about why they might not arrest somebody.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:00

Gotcha. Um, super chat for Ariel, dropped five bucks. Thank you very much. Uh said if you ID or if your ID or driver's uh driver's license has expired and you're not driving, but police have the right to ID. Would giving the expired ID be considered presenting invalid ID? Um, I'm not a lawyer, but in my mind, I would say no. You're required to present an ID. It's not that that information on that ID is not factual, it's all factual information, it's just expired. So yeah, show them the expired ID. They're gonna figure out it's expired.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

Yeah, and I believe I believe you said he was not operating, correct? That was the scenario not operating a vehicle at the time.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:41

Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right. He did say that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:43

Um, I mean, you know, I a citation. Yeah, they they may issue. You know, however, you're gonna have a defensive prosecution in there. Uh the the terms of that driver's license, class C or whatever your state is, class D and some, it's while operating a motor vehicle. And if you're sitting there as a passenger and you actually get stroked a dumb ticket like that, I mean you can you're probably gonna get out of it. You may have a couple dollars in court fees, it's ridiculous you receive that type of ticket.

Baton Beating Case Breakdown

SPEAKER_05 1:06:11

But yeah, you shouldn't have to you shouldn't have to go through that. I don't know a cop, I don't know why a cop would write that ticket considering you're not operating a motor vehicle. Um I've seen cops do stupider things though. So uh who knows? Um, I got I got nothing else to add on that. Uh Mr. Billfold said most statutes hinge upon the name and date of birth if physical ID is not available. Yeah. Yeah, if you if you're not the one driving um and you don't have a government ID on you at the time, like you're not technically required to have one on you anyway. You're not operating the vehicle. I can be a 40-year-old man walking around without an ID. And if the cop stops me and I did something illegal, jaywalking or whatever, uh I don't even know if jaywalking is technically illegal anywhere anymore, but um uh if I do something stupid and um they need to ID me, I just have to tell them. Um they're going to try to figure out if they arrest me, they're gonna ID me anyway at jail, whether that's through fingerprinting or other means. But um, yeah. And then then you go into the name game if I gave them a false name, and that's always a fun adventure. Uh I love the name game. Name game was always fun for me. The longest it took me one time was about 50 minutes. 50 minutes trying to figure out who this person was. So uh it turned out he had a homicide warrant. That's why we were playing the name game. So uh is what it is. Um, but yeah, but we have been going an hour, so we have not looked at any video, we've just been answering questions, which is great. This is a part of the show, guys. It's one of the things I love. I feel like our engagement has gone just astronomical lately. Every time we jump on a live and we've got uh a guest, that the chat is just out of control. Um, it's really hard. It's really hard for me without a without an Alan or a dead leg here, but um, we're getting by with what we're what we're trying to do. Uh Harrison, you're not 40 anymore. You're right, I'm 43. Leave me alone. Um, so I want to get to a video. This video was sent in. Um, Harrison and I think Brandar sent this video, and they both were blowing me up. It's about a three-minute video. I have not watched this video, so um we will see uh what it is. I have no clue what this video is about. Okay, share screen. All right, fellas. Let me let me biggie size this here. Oh, I think we are already. Okay. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:55

For his job and his freedom. He pounded on a man at the end of a police chase who'd already given up. In fact, that officer got more time behind bars than the suspect he was after. Video shows the moment he crossed the line. A man reported to be armed, dangerous, and driving a stolen car. Troopers stopped him in Carroll County using a tire deflation device. Kidd runs out of the car and into the woods. The troopers chased him. This is Hayden King.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:38

You know how mad I'm gonna be that I have to go in dirty woods like that? That's some thick woods. I'm already worried about spiders and mosquitoes. Ticks. Yeah, nah, ticks don't well, ticks has never really been a problem for me, but yeah, that would be a word Virginia. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:56

Killborn. Moments later, Trooper Kilborne task.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:05

He said, You are fucked. Okay, he's running. So far, I'm okay with the f the tasing. He's he's fleeing. Um it's a intermediate use of force considering we just had felony pursuit.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:17

This is Kid. Give me your hands!

SPEAKER_05 1:10:24

Oh, that was a headshot. A couple headshots. I'm not a big fan of this.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:33

As Kid holds his hands up, video shows Kilborne continuing to hit him repeatedly with a baton.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:39

Put your hands behind your back! I will kill you! Put your hands behind your back now!

SPEAKER_05 1:10:49

So you got two people yelling commands. You're beating him while you're yelling commands. Good luck. I I can only process so much at one time, and when I'm getting the shit beat out of me with a metal baton in my head.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:04

Give me your hands! Court and documents say Kidd suffered seven stitches to the upper lip, bruising across his face and body, and broken teeth because of the attack.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:14

During the baton strikes, the suspect was seen on body camera footage appearing to comply and show his hands to Trooper Kilborne. It was during this time that the agency determined that Trooper Kilborne's actions constituted excessive force.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:29

Five days later, KSP moved to fire Kilborne. He appealed and saved his job, getting a six-month suspension without pay. KSP also launched a criminal investigation. And while it played out, the department pulled Kilborne off the street, putting him on admin duty and taking away his police powers. In January of this year, Kilborne pleaded guilty to assault and terroristic threatening. He was sentenced to five years in prison, agreed not to seek probation, and to surrender his law enforcement credentials. Meanwhile, Kidd was sentenced to three years for the stolen car and police chase. He's set to be released from lockup later this year. Now Kidd is suing Kilborne. That lawsuit claims that Kill Kidd posed no threat. There was no justification for that use of force. The lawsuit is still working its way through the courts.

Duty To Intervene And Accountability

SPEAKER_05 1:12:27

Okay. Well, I guess uh I let me stop sharing here. Before Vaughn gets going, because this is his territory. Before Vaughn gets going, um I was okay with the chase. I was okay with the it was a stolen vehicle. So where I'm at, we chase stolen vehicles. Um foot pursuit into the woods, pretty thick brush, all that stuff. Um tasing, I was okay with the tasing. Um and then then it it went it went sideways. Um the one, it's very hard. If it anybody that's um even been through scenario-based training, when you're getting hit uh and trying to hear commands, it it messes with you. It's hard to take on the two things at the same time. Um when you're getting hit with a baton in the head, I mean he had broken teeth, busted lip, all that stuff. So these were headshots. Uh, that's where I'm at anyway, what I was trained is a head is a no-go. That's a that's not a target area. Now, what they train you to say is that I was aiming for his his arm or an approved spot, and due to the dynamic fluid situation, it hit his head.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:43

And I I don't say this often. Highlight my cucumbers comment because that's a big comment.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:49

Um I do need to go. I do he did drop another 10 bucks. I do have to I address that. Um, but let me get to where is his comment? Uh duty to intervene, is that the one you're talking about?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:00

Absolutely. There I'm seeing this more and more, and these these peace officers around the country have got to remember you do have a duty to to intervene, whether it feels wrong or whatever. You know, you may be a county or a municipal cop, and that's a state trooper. And oh my god, it's a state trooper. Who gives a shit? Yeah, you are on the call with them, intervene.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:23

And I get it if it's if it's that first whack or two, like shit happens fast. Like you, oh well, well, you know, like but your boy was chopping a tree down.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:31

Sometimes you gotta wrap up somebody with a badge on, like a pretzel, too, if that freaking happens in front of you, period.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:35

Yeah, so okay. With that said, I want to I want to go to Vaughn. I want to see what Vaughn had to say about this. Um, I know he does his his wizardry on uh use of force, so I was always curious. Uh, and then we'll get to Mike's question.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:51

So I'm just gonna highlight what the video showed. Um they told him show me your hands, and he did, and got hit repeatedly for it. Yeah. So the question you have to keep asking yourself is what could he have done to have demonstrated compliance that he didn't already do? Right? Yeah. What what because the question is, could a reasonable officer believed this guy posed a threat, right? Was he was they potentially armed? There was no one hand hidden, yeah. And and if that's the case, and you say, Show me your hands, and he shows you his hands, the question then becomes is how reasonable is it to continue to hit him? You're basically gonna that's just gonna break his arm. That's what I was expecting to hear was those arm breaks. Um, I didn't see anything in that video. Of course, we haven't interviewed the officer, but I think whoever did investigate this and follow it up um likely had that. But all I saw in that video was a guy who was complying with what I heard the officer say, and then you got to ask, and we did you brought up simulations. Like it's terrifying when you do simulations and and you're doing what the officer said, you're not resisting, and they're they're still using force, you got to go back afterwards. It's usually because they get on that loop, yeah, and what they want you to do is get on your face and put your hands behind your back. But what they're saying literally is show me your hands, show me your hands, and you're not complying with what they intend, but you're absolutely complying with what they say. Well, there's no excuse for that. Like you don't get to hit people when they're doing exactly what you asked them to do, yeah, right now you may be asking them to do something that's not tactically, you know, the best tactical thing, but in that case, I don't know that that was even a bad tactical direction. Show me your hands. He does, right? The next thing is do not move, you know. Yeah, none of that played out here. So there's no wizardry to be seen here, sir. This is just from what you showed us on the video, show me your hands. He showed him his hands and he got hit repeatedly for it. Um, yeah, I don't I don't there wasn't anything on there that now that the only thing about duty to intervene. Let me follow up with that. Duty to intervene makes sense if you but it's very hard to criminalize it. It's it's hard to criminalize it because we're seeing it on video. We don't know what that other officer was seeing. You don't know when it's gonna start. The first couple are usually a surprise because you're even like going, What are you doing? Right? It takes you off guard and you don't realize it's gonna keep going. So you think it's done, it's over, and he's already stopped, and then he kicks it off again. The first intervening is to talk to him. You don't have to tackle him. Although, I for those who have been on the show, you've heard me say before, I literally have tackled at least two officers off of suspects. One mounted up on him and was literally choking this guy, and I had to go and literally bum rush him and shoulder him off of that guy. Um, and then the other one, the other one, yeah, uh, was trying to throttle a guy in the back seat, went to go choke the guy who was already in the backseat in handcuffs because he was mad, and I had to literally rip him off of the guy. So sometimes you get to the point where you have to physically intervene, but the first part is just it's just talk, talk, talk. Hey, we got him, buddy, we got him because you want to bring down their arousal. So you got to keep yourself in in optimal arousal, so you want to emotional arousal so you can uh I'm optimal right now, baby. Right, but you also when you see your buddy going condition black, right? He's over here and he's hyper elevated. You want to be like, Are you hey, are you good, buddy? You good, buddy? And if you watch uh end of watch, you guys watch that cop show end of watch, those partners' communication with each other is very realistic. Yes, we good partner, what are we doing, partner? What are we doing, partner? Were you good partner? You know, checking in with them all the time. That's how it happens in real life because your partner has good days, bad days, you don't know what happened, they might be maxed out, and you got to be there. Check on that. So the first duty to intervene is to communicate with them, and then at the end of that, you might have to literally tackle the guy off and be grab them, pull them off. Yeah, we see those cases too where uh we got one case where a trooper had to literally pull a city cop off of off of some of a suspect. So there's cops doing it, they're taking it seriously. I just don't like criminalizing it because it's it's very hard to know when it when you would have expected that officer based on what he was paying attention to, because he's got to worry about safety stuff too. He's not an observer, he's a participant. And at some point you kind of look up and you realize, hey, enough already, guy. Let's let's let's try a different tactic. Um, so it's hard to know when that starting point is when it would have been clear to any reasonable officer that the guy was engaging in excessive force and intended to continue to do it. That's the hard starting point in the duty to intervene. Uh, I wrote that policy for Lexapol, and I just I wrote it somewhat where where it would have been obvious to any reasonable officer that the force was excessive, then you have a duty to intervene. But if you can intervene earlier with communications, right? And that's all about training. You got to build that in at the very beginning of your academy training, or it's gonna be too late on the street. Um, so we don't often talk about that too. Honestly, a lot of trainers don't even come into what we're talking about right now, which is you maintain the optimal arousal state for yourself. That means understanding there's lots of things, lots of things you have to do to do that. Uh Olympic athlete level stuff cops can be doing and a lot do, but you also then have to help your partner maintain optimal arousal states, you know. Yeah, and the first thing isn't de-escalation, it's non-escalation, right? And then the do that intense, uncertain, rapidly evolving circumstances. It it is very difficult. Um, and I'll just I'll close with this piece. We all worked with officers who we knew we didn't want at the scene, we knew they were gonna red light. Yep, we knew it, and everyone knew it. And you could turn them in a hundred times, and maybe something would happen, maybe nothing would happen.

SPEAKER_08 1:20:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:55

Uh, one of my first FTOs, and I shared this before, he he was the only guy really that I watched absolutely abuse people. And I told my sergeant, like, hey, I don't know the stories this guy's telling because I was there and that's not what happened. And I told him, So I'm just supposed to tell you, and I'm a rookie. Well, I didn't know because I was I was rookie that the sergeant and this guy were really good friends. So ultimately it got to the right people, but it wasn't it's these cops you put there in bad situations when you get those guys who show up to calls, and everybody knows please tell that guy not to come to my calls because things are only going to get worse. Um, I don't know if this guy had that reputation, if this was an anomaly, uh, because I've also seen cases where you got the most restrained, disciplined, high-functioning cop out there, and he behaves as an anomaly off his norm. Like he's usually highly composed, great, great operator. And one day you're shocked by what you're seeing, and you got to figure out what happened there. Does that end his career? Does that put him in jail? And people are like, you know, he's an abusive cop, and you go, Well, he was tonight. I've never seen that from him before. So there's a human side of it too. Um I got yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:10

Um, in this one, one, I don't know if you guys could tell. The baton bent a little bit. That's how hard your boy was chopping that tree.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:17

Um, so that could have been the camera, my friend.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:20

It could have been.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:21

But the fish eye lens makes the thing bend, but it's better for your story to make it sound like you bent it.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:27

It looks bent. Um it looks bent. It looks bent. So uh I was trying to pause it on the baton while you were talking. I just could not get the damn thing to cooperate with me. Uh but yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:39

Anyway, um, for those I got a funny thing to share real quick. Okay, so I'm texting uh Pappy and Dwayne. Oh saying hi to them and tell them welcome. And uh they said uh one of them says, Who is this? And I said, I said it's Vaughn. And he says, Oh, I thought it might be Mr. Belfold.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:04

Oh shit, Mr. Billfold's already a legend. They're worried about you, Mr. B.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:09

How how did he get your numbers is what I want to know. That man is good.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:13

He is good. I love it. That's what we should have done. We should have just given their numbers to them. I just did.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:19

I gave Mr. Bullford Bilford both their numbers so that we can get a hold of them.

Helping A Viewer After An Arrest

SPEAKER_05 1:23:23

Love it. Um, all right. Let me get to uh Mike's question. Um, and oh, the before I do, I'm sorry, Mike, one more, one more point on this accountability, police accountability. You guys saw within five days this guy was pulled from the streets. Uh all like the investigation went how it should do, and he got everything that he should have gotten. The system worked. So, for those that say police are never held accountable, like, look, here's an example. Like, I it it just doesn't get highlighted. Why? It would have got highlighted a lot more if this dude didn't get in any trouble. But he did get in trouble and he went to prison. But we don't hear about it. I would have never heard of this fucking story if one of you guys had hadn't shared it with us. So that's the crazy thing to me is the media doesn't they should have been showing this thing all over the place, and I didn't see it. And this is what I do. This is part of my little side job here. So anyway, uh over to Mike. Sorry, Mike. Mike dropped another 10 bucks, and I didn't want to miss it, um, but we were on that and I didn't want to be rude. So uh super chat, 10 bucks. Um, not IDing is not obstruction in my state. Not answering my door was any advice to help me with the emotional side. I'm sure the officer thinks nothing of it while I've spent months being depressed. That's a heavy question, brother. Um advice. It's hard. I it depends on the mindset you have. I'm an optimistic person by nature. Even when shit sucks, I I I tend to focus on the positive sides of things. You know, how much worse could it have been? Which doesn't help you. Um, and I don't know your mindset. I don't know the type of person you are. Um for me, it trying to find things that restore my faith in humanity helps me. Um, I will intentionally seek out videos of good things um that that kind of remind me that there's still a lot of good people out there. I will talk to people about it. I'll talk to like let's say I had a problem with a cop. Like if I was in your shoes, my advice would be go do a ride-along if you can. Uh, go talk to another cop. You're talking to cops right now. So um I don't know. I don't I I'm not the most uh crisis intervention trained person in the world. Uh banning Vaughn, either one of you guys got something?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:51

You've always got to be able to communicate with people. You can't just let stuff build up in your head uh thinking that you were you know isolated and and and you may truly in fact have been. I don't I don't know the story of the case, but the best thing you have to understand is, and regardless of what your thoughts are, not all cops are bad. They're they're the and I know people are sick of hearing it, but the majority of them, and I don't care if they're sick of it, are very good people. Uh I'm humbling some of y'all think that we're we're good folks, and and and we represent the the masses of law enforcement out there. And I know a lot of people don't want to hear that, but that's that's the tr I know a lot of cops across the country. Um, and there's a lot of good cops out there, so many more good cops than there are bad. And what Eric said on going out there to take that ride out, you know, you may not want to ride with that specific agency, go ride out with the county agency. State law enforcement, write a different one. Uh, you know, and just and just get that experience firsthand.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:46

Yeah, and and and let them know why. I would tell them, like, I had a really bad experience. I'm just trying to wrap my head around that all y'all aren't like this. Um, go sit down and talk to an IA person at another agency. I I learned so much from IA. I it's one of those places I never want to work, I don't want to be a part of it. Uh I I don't envy what they have to do. Um and I learn so much every time I talk. I happen to run across one. I always have a question, hey, I was thinking about this. Like, what do you guys do? How do you guys make sure your checks and balances? How do we know you're not just protecting blue just because it's blue? Like, and then they started telling me about all their checks and balances and stuff that they have that like they're like, there's no way we could we could do what you're saying. I'm like, okay, that's pretty cool. Uh Mike said this channel is good for me. Uh well, we appreciate that, brother. And I remember you it must have been pretty fresh because you went after me, bro. He was taking out his emotional stress on us. I was like, Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

So uh you're feeling better, man. You're not gonna work punching bags. I mean, friggin' punch away. That's what that's what you know, Eric originally built this for, is is and that's what we're we're still trying to do every day is is bring the community to law enforcement. Let's have some common ground. We're not gonna agree on everything, let's talk about it. That's how this whole thing got created. So the you coming to this channel is exactly of what why it was even created to begin with. So thank you for coming here.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:19

Yeah. Steve, Steve uh Pappy said, uh, I didn't get the text on.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:26

He ignored it because he had my I hadn't given him my he hadn't made the cut for my personal cell number yet. So he saw my business one pop up and yeah, or that it didn't track, but he's he's risen to the level he now has my personal cell. But yeah, I'm gonna one of the other things about that uh last conversation is uh we had the benefit of cops when we arrest people. A lot of times we get to sit with them for hours afterwards and have conversations, right? You're doing you're doing gang and drug investigations, whatever. You're there talking to, and you get to have those conversations about why you did what you did, and all the things that they misunderstood about what they thought their rights were, what the law was, you get to flesh that out. And so there is a like a decompression. When you just have your your life certainty stripped from you, injustice, you feel like it's unjust, you feel like you can't predict your own world anymore. It's high levels of stress. You feel like you know, I tell you, one of the the my sister will kill me, one of the best life lessons I had was when my sister did something and I got spanked for it. Talk about injustice. You're like, you know the truth, and you're literally getting spanked for something someone else did. That's sort of what it feels like, and I never forgot that. So one of the things, and I don't know if it's possible, but I've heard this happen where you do sort of a uh almost like a mediation. You say, Hey, can can I talk with the officer? I got arrested, and I don't, I still don't know why. And if the officer would be willing to sit down with me and explain, you know, what they were doing, why they did it, help me understand, because this has really been bothering me. Uh, I've heard officers willing to do that. I certainly would be willing to do that. I would be yeah, and I've yeah, and I've done that too, but I I but like I say, I was thinking, how often did I actually do that where someone asked? It was more often sitting in the interview room with them for hours, we're like, hey, man, that wasn't right what you did. How many times did it start with, man, you know you're wrong, it wasn't right what you did. And you're just like, hey, let's talk about it. What are you talking about? And they just don't know the exceptions, they don't know all this why you can search their car, they don't know why you can arrest them. They don't know that the odor of marijuana, for example, was illegal. It's PC. I get to get you out of the car and search your car. So because they think they weren't holding a marijuana cigarette, you can't search their car. So they they feel like it was unjust, unrighteous, because they didn't know what the law actually was. You get a chance to sit and explain to them if you want to. Now, if you're doing gang and drug investigation, You often didn't want to tell them what the PC was until you got to court because you don't want to educate them on how to hide it the next time, right? Remember when we'd see you know the corners of plastic baggies ripped off sitting on the floor, right? Which is how they were packaging crack cocaine back in the day. Um, so that's PC to search the car. And so they didn't know that, and you're getting them out of the car and they're getting arrested on PC, and then you're searching the car, and they're really upset about it. Um, and that's just just a case, and you guys are great at putting this out on videos all the time. There's just a case where the officer doesn't know the law, and you're sitting there like, I didn't do anything wrong, and you're right, and there's gonna be those cases. Um, so it would be nice, you know, if I'm in your position to say, look, I just want to understand what I did, I still don't know what I did, and and you it's hard to go through life unable to predict your own interaction, particularly with people in positions of authority.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:51

Yeah. Um, to what I have Kingslayer's thing up here, um, that I want to address real quick, and then I'll get to uh Mr. Bill Fold drop five bucks in the uh super chats. Um, the system didn't work. He should have been arrested right after they finished arresting the person. That officer got a kid glove system. Listen, I I I'll I'll just say I hate I hate this. I hate when people say this this stuff. I don't this actually pisses me off. The system doesn't have a fucking time frame. The system's a system. When it works, it works. Whether it takes a year, whether it takes four days, whether it takes uh right on the spot. You you're you seem to think that because the cop did it right then and there, that it should have happened right then and there, and it didn't. That doesn't mean the system didn't work. There are people that have committed homicides and weren't arrested on the spot and committed it right in front of a cop. I know specifically of one that happened in front of me where two people fought and he punched a guy, and the guy hit his head on the back on the ground. He was not arrested initially. He was let to go home because it was a mutual fight. He was defending himself actually. And he wasn't arrested, but then he ended up getting arrested later. So just because they don't get fucking arrested right then and there, because your instant gratification wasn't satisfied, doesn't mean the system didn't fucking work. The the guy sitting in prison.

SPEAKER_07 1:33:24

Yeah, we got you want to add to that, um, there are cases where they moved too fast on the officers, and the officers never got held accountable because they violated the officers' rights, they violated the procedural rights internally and their statutory rights, and then they ended up they they just did things too fast. And so some of the times, especially if you got a lawyer involved, your your corporate counsel, your your legal police legal advisor who's saying, Hey, you got to cross the T's and dot the I's if you want this prosecution to stick. And so slow down, don't look like it, like you were trying to retaliate, don't look like this was personal. Slow down, conduct the investigation like you would any other investigation. And when you get PC, then we make the arrest. But on a case like this, you want to get a statement if you can get a statement. You want to get the statement of the other officers, you want to review the body cam because you want to get it right. If you get it wrong, you end up losing a really righteous case. So that's it's just from a lawyer standpoint. There's I see a I've seen a lot of cases where they went too fast, and the guy ends up getting his job back and a bunch of back pay, and then he has a civil suit against the agency because they went too fast.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:36

Yeah. And then he's untouchable. And then they become a yeah, then he's untouchable because anything you do, even if he does fuck up, now he's gonna be able to claim retaliation. So I've seen it anyway. Um, Mr. Billfold, he dropped five bucks in the super chat and he said Mike is the rule, not the exception. He has legal, arguable defense that the obstruction charge, but at what cost? Justice juice not worth a squeeze. And I understand what he's saying. Um is that that's probably where the depression's coming from, is the fact that he knows he was right, he was wronged, or at least thinks he is. Um and even if he tries to go prove that in court, now you got the cost, you've got I mean, he's already dropped three grand on an attorney. Uh you got all this stuff. It's just easier to plea, and that's what sucks about the system.

SPEAKER_07 1:35:31

Um, it's not a we we mentioned it before, too. The the hardest people to deal with are innocent people, right? Because the law allows you to stop people just on reasonable suspicion, which means there a lot of innocent people get stopped, but it's reasonable to suspect them. You do the investigation, you let them go. Yeah, and innocent people do not like to be stopped. It's hard to go. I understand you're just doing your job. Like the way the officer engages with them makes a huge difference in investigatory detentions and stops. Then the next thing is probable cause is an investigatory standard. We arrest people just on a probable cause standard, which is a very low standard. That's less, that's less than, you know, that doesn't really have a neat statistical level, but it's we know it's less than 51% because that's preponderance of the evidence. So a lot of innocent people are legally arrested. The officers have to have enough emotional intelligence to realize I don't care if it's a lawful arrest based on PC, uh, you might want to circle back with that person. The way you treat them in the process works, but if you can circle back with a tactical apology, hey, sorry for any of the inconvenience, I know that sucked. You know, you don't always get that chance, but often when you get a lot of frequent flyers, you do, and you get to you get to have that conversation with them. You can have it in court where they threw the case out on a at the at the preliminary hearing, right? It doesn't even get through the prelim. And the judge is saying there's there's insufficient evidence to move forward. It it or they more evidence came in. So that's the other thing is uh you had probable cause at the time, and then additional evidence comes in that dissipated the probable cause. It means at the time the arrest was illegal, but further processing is not because now you know better. But the people involved, like I don't care what the legal standard is. You stopped me and I was innocent. You detained me and I was innocent, you arrested me and I was innocent, even though it was lawful, not to mention the ones that that you didn't have that and they were un illegal, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:37:26

Yeah, yeah. And Kingslayer, you just you're not getting it, bro. You're not getting it. You you think that the cops are getting the kid glove system because they get these extras. It's not extras. I'm telling you, the uh citizens I've seen get way more. I have seen people literally investigated for a murder and they were interviewed, all but put the smoking gun on themselves and were allowed to walk out the door. That's that's literally what the homicide investigators did. And I'm as a as a snot-nosed officer that had only been on two years. I was like, what the fuck was that? This dude just put himself on the scene, like every smoking gun that you could want. This guy basically said, because I got to watch the interview, and they just let him walk out the door. Why? Because it was a consensual encounter interview. He wasn't uh it wasn't an interrogation, like and it was crazy. I never seen anything like it. I didn't know that that was a thing. So I disagree with you. It is you just don't see it. That's the problem, and you just assume that other people don't get that same treatment, and that's not true. Citizens get this banning Vaughn. I'm just only given my experience.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:40

Well, you see, this the system itself, if you look at about 90 between 90 and 98 percent of all your criminal cases are going to get pled out. That means they're not being held accountable to what they actually did, right? Unless they're pleading to the top offense, which is not really beneficial to in most pleas, it might save money. Of those, you get like 85% to get probation. Like the idea that citizens are being held accountable for the actual conduct that they committed, um, there's so much crime that the system would be overloaded if we did that. Overwhelmingly guilty people are being allowed to play down to things that they that were much less than what they actually did, and then they're getting pro probation. It is hard to put somebody in jail statistically. Now, we all know people that are in prison, obviously, but it is usually an extensive uh criminal history before somebody's getting put in prison these days. Now, obviously, if it's uh heinous enough crime, you can probably hit them on the first one. But the definition of what's heinous these days isn't even robberies, even it isn't even ag assaults, isn't even attempted murders, right? You you're still you're still getting a lot. So there is that. I think cops do have certain administrative protections for conduct that occurs in their professional capacity. That's the whole presumption issue, but it's a rebuttable presumption. I think someone had a comment in there that that I thought they should get the benefit of the doubt, or you know, one, they get a presumption of innocence and a presumption of regularity, but our job is to investigate, they can lose that presumption. These are rebuttable presumptions, and it doesn't take long to dig into these cases to go, yeah, no, you know, because they don't really come down to credibility determinations anymore. There's body cam footage all the time, there's other witnesses. It's rare that any of these cases come down to just pure credibility. Um, and oftentimes we're also in a system where if it's a credibility determination, the burden is on us to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. You just, if you say, I don't know who to believe, it's not guilty. That sucks. Like in how many of these cases we're like, I don't know who to believe. I can't tell you the cops telling the truth, I don't know if he's lying. That's not guilty in criminal cases because you got to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and that can be frustrating.

SPEAKER_08 1:40:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:54

So yeah, the system is definitely set up to protect anybody, cop or civilian, much more than it's set up for victims.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:03

Yeah, absolutely. Um, Mike dropped uh five bucks in the super chat and said uh Eric, it's it's a legal gray area that would need to be hashed out in court. 15 to 30 grand to appeal, definitely a cost-benefit analysis. Thank you all. So I hear you, brother. Sorry, sorry that you had to go through that. And you know, now the more that I know about it, the I understand why you were uh you had a little chip on your shoulder and took it out on us for a little bit. I get it, brother. All all is uh forgiven, I promise.

SPEAKER_07 1:41:36

Hey, uh on a bright note, uh we now have another Hall of Fame, Hall of Fame inductive, National Law Enforcement Officer Hall of Fame, Lindsay McCall has joined this uh podcast today. Oh, nice. She is a she is an amazing police officer or uh and uh absolute hero. I won't go through her exact story, but uh she put her life on the line, saved her partner, and and and was actually shot in the process. Uh she now is really dedicated to uh resilience and and mental health support. And uh you guys were there, I think, when she was inducted.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:13

She spoke, right? Yeah. Yes, yeah, I remember her.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:17

Yes. So she she's she has joined us here. Um actually probably did not ask me to call her out, but I'd love to.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:23

She owes me a podcast. We had a conversation where she'd be on the podcast.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:27

So well now she's on.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:28

We need to do that. We need to we need to line that up, girl. For sure. Um, that'd be a fun story to tell on here, and I'm sure our people would appreciate that. Um, Steve Pappy said, uh, as a non-lawyer, don't trust me. But Fresno, California just came out regarding great bodily injury versus serious bodily injury. Serious bodily injury is apparently a greater injurious definition. Calcrim 505, civilian use of deadly force must fear great bodily injury. Calcrim 507, officer use of deadly force must be the greater standard of serious bodily injury. Good to know, good to know.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:07

Um he's the California translator interpreter because they good luck. They didn't make up, they make up stuff as they go. I'm good luck to stay on top of it.

The Call That Ends Well

SPEAKER_05 1:43:20

Uh, no offense to our California peeps, but I don't know how y'all do it. I don't know how you do it. Uh um Kevin uh with an Ohio, I'm sorry, uh go blue. Um, you can't see it, but I have my Michigan flag back here. He he's got an Ohio State Buckeyes um uh icon. He said, hey guys, critical of law enforcement, but I'm not one of the dumb ones. Sadly, there are higher powers turning us against law enforcement. You guys understand reasonable suspicion and look at the facts. Yes, yes, and you're not wrong. There's definitely people constantly trying to put us against uh put people against cops. Um it's just division in general. Uh it sells, guys. It just sells. So um let's get to some fucking videos. Uh, we have been neglecting our videos. Um I am going to pull up some stuff that I got cued. Some of this stuff I have watched. So we got some Instagram stuff that I wanted to get on here. So let me uh share the screen. All right. And it is on. Okay. Um, this may appear a little smaller than normal. That's what she said. Uh trying to let me hide the chat. There we go. All right. So I have seen this. Uh this is I just I'll just play it. You guys watch this. So here we go. This is not going to be a body cam review. This is uh this is story time. So let's watch the story.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:00

Do you guys have do you guys know where he usually goes?

SPEAKER_08 1:45:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:05

So it's not usual for him to actually get all the way. Okay. All right, here's what I mean. They're saying that he usually runs like this. Do you have anybody on Freeman Lake? Okay. How about this? One of you, Steve Reynolds right here, one of you go to Freeman's Lake. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:35

So, quick backstory. Um, they have a nonverbal autistic kid. Uh, he tends to we can wander from his house uh occasionally, and he's got a history of it. Um normally they've always been able to get him. They couldn't get him this time and couldn't find him, so they called the cops, and that's what you guys are seeing.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:54

Well they didn't have the kid on the lake.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:58

They found him.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:58

They found him. He's okay.

SPEAKER_08 1:47:05

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:19

That's what I'm talking about. I love that shit. I love that. That's why we sign up. I think that's um I everybody's got different reasons why I sign up to be a cop. Um, there's those that are like, I want to drive fast and chase bad guys. And um, I think my personal thing was always I just wanted to help people. That was me personally. I just want to help people. I want to help people better than what I was helping when I was a kid. I didn't have a good impression of cops. Um wasn't a big fan. Uh I love my first responders in my military. I just where I was at. I was like, I don't and and you know, when you think you're gonna be a cop, you're like, I'm gonna be a cop where I grew up. Well, that didn't happen, but um this was really cool to see. And I want people to see that there's no hesitation. These guys weren't out seeking glory, they just they had a job to do, they communicated well, they organized, they uh set a plan in motion and they executed it. And it was beautiful. And look what look at the response you got from either mom or grandma, I don't know who she was, but um I mean, there's just not a better feeling in the world than something like that. So uh you guys know me. I try to stay pretty balanced. I want you guys to see great examples of cops, and I also want you to see bad examples. Um, that Kentucky one that we saw is a bad example. But the good side of that is somebody was held accountable. Um, and then you see this. This could have been very easily uh what we refer to as a floater, um, and that would have been horrible, but it wasn't. They acted fast enough that that wasn't a problem. Uh it did a great job. Benny, you got anything to add on that?

SPEAKER_00 1:48:56

No, sir. It's uh it's good to see that every now and then with all the stuff that gets sent to our inboxes. That's really good to see that.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:03

Yeah, all it all these I mean, I haven't looked up a video myself in a long time. Uh, I think Mr. Billfold actually sent this one. Bro, we I I'm gonna call him out. Mr. Pessimistic, Mr. Realist, Mr. Billfold. I there's there's a hint of optimism in this man. He's we're we're winning him. He's he's he's looking at some rainbows now. I I don't think everything's sunshine yet, but he's looking at a couple rainbows and he's he's kind of in awe and he's starting to share some of the good stuff with us. He's not just sharing the bad videos anymore, he's sharing the good ones. He's he's turning it into a softy. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:41

So uh make up our own uh award ceremony.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:46

I know, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:49:46

I know, right?

Another Clip Teased Next

SPEAKER_05 1:49:47

Um so next video. I have this one, this is a double-edged sword. There's really good things about it, and there's really bad things about it. The really bad thing about it, you're going to see it right away. I can't wait to see Vaughn's reaction because I want to know what he thinks. Um all right, let me share the screen here. Another Instagram vid.