TCOD x Southern Drawl Law: Senatobia Case Breakdown

A diaper shoplifting allegation should never end with a one-year-old dead, but that is exactly why we felt we had to talk about Senatobia, Mississippi. We sit down with James White from Southern Draw Law, a former cop and attorney who has spent years breaking down police accountability cases with receipts, legal context, and zero patience for excuses. Together, we walk through what is known so far, what the public still has not been shown, and why official statements that sound like “trust the process” often deepen suspicion instead of building trust.

We zoom out from the headlines to the mechanics that create disasters: the culture inside a department, the incentive to protect the institution, and the training gaps that leave officers improvising constitutional law under stress. We dig into why shooting into moving vehicles is almost never tactically sound, how “unmet expectations” can trigger ego and emotional escalation, and why supervisors matter more than most people want to admit. James also explains key concepts like constitutional sequencing and what legally counts as a seizure, plus how civil exposure and Monell claims can reveal patterns that leadership tries to ignore.

We end with a hard but necessary message: policing has to be built on the Constitution, humility, and real consequences, not slogans or feelings. If you want more conversations like this, subscribe, share this with someone who cares about better policing, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Transcript

Disclaimer And Viewer Warning

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey quick disclaimer. The views and opinions you're about to hear are those of the hosts and guests alone. They don't represent any police department, agency, sponsor, or employer. Two cops, one donut isn't responsible for anything said by guests or for any videos, clips, or content shown during the live stream. This show is intended for adult audiences only. We cover real incidents, we show graphic and sometimes disturbing footage, and we don't shy away from strong language or adult conversations. There may or may not also be alcohol involved. Viewer discretion is strongly advised. Everything you hear or see on the show is for entertainment and educational purposes. It is not legal advice and it's not tactical instruction. And it shouldn't be used for such. By continuing to watch, you're telling us that you understand, you accept all this. All right, now let's get into it.

Meet The Hosts And James White

SPEAKER_02 0:51

All right, welcome back. I am your host, Sergeant Eric Levine. Today I have with me my co-hosts, Banning Sweatland, and the detective Matt Thornton.

SPEAKER_06 1:01

What up? What up?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

And our very special guest. We have been very excited to get this man on here. The one, the only, James White from Southern Draw Law. What's going on, James? That's what's good.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

I had to turn my GPS monitor on my ankle down, but we're good.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Hell yeah. That's what I'm talking about. So, guys, if um anybody is out there wondering who this man is, be sure you go to Southern Draw Law. Like, follow, subscribe, all his stuff on YouTube. Um, we have been, me and Matt especially, have been following James for years. Uh, love your stuff. I've I've actually, we kind of had this discussion offline is um we here on two cops one donut, and this is more for your audience, uh James, but this is not a uh police echo chamber place. This is a we should be held to a higher standard place. So we got to have the tough conversations. And if that means pissing off other police officers because cops screw up, we know they screw up, that's one of the reasons we follow your stuff, is because you don't just call out police because they screw up, you back it up with education and legal precedence, and you're able to prove it through logic and reasoning without getting emotional about it. And that is exactly what we're trying to foster here. Um, will we get emotional when we see certain things? Sure. One of the things that we talk about quite often on here is a Sonia Massey case. If that doesn't piss you off as a police officer, you probably shouldn't be in this profession. If you look at the Sonia Massey case, and that is you you can try to your initial instinct is to try to justify that. Fuck you. You don't you don't belong in police work. That's just my opinion, just throwing that out there. So that's for your audience. This is not a this is not an echo chamber. We're here to actually try to improve things, and the only way to do that is have real conversation, bring both sides to the table, and try to do what you do so much better than what we do.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

Well, I appreciate that. You're I'm gonna be honest with you, you I'm gonna give you only 30 minutes to keep talking to me like that.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Matt, don't get Matt started because shoot, he he took a blue chew today. He may he may just go off.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

I hope so, but I'll be honest with you. Matt looks like he might be cast as Denzel Washington's guy in the next training day episode.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

So oh, absolutely. Yeah, guys maybe dream of mine, right? Yeah, if you guys don't know uh Detective Matt Thornton, please make sure you go to his YouTube channel, like, follow, subscribe to him. Um, Matt has been a part of the two cops one donut family for a couple years now, uh at least. And um, we share the same mission. Uh we got linked up in the same manner. Uh that people just reached out. And so that's kind of what I wanted to do a thank you to our our community that seems to leak over into yours, James. Is we had Patrick and then we had Freeman Keys that made this possible tonight. So I really want to thank those guys.

SPEAKER_04 4:00

Oh, and there's a I I texted it to you, but there's a the first person that I've that I found an email from was a guy named, and I don't know how to say his name.

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Ariel Bohm.

SPEAKER_04 4:09

Ariel Bohm, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Yes, Ariel is another one. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

Um, so I appreciate that. And this is a cool opportunity for me. I I I rarely get to talk to um cops who who don't immediately just dismiss, you know, it people are just you have to be ready for the information. It's not like um the further I've gotten from government employment and you you can go back and watch my very first video, which for your sake, I hope you don't, but but it my perspective has changed a lot. Um, and I have a lot less tolerance for certain things, and I have a lot more tolerance for certain things that I used to have no tolerance for. So I think that that's part of your responsibility as a human being is to try to change your perspective and be different and better every day. And and and I've changed a lot about that, but it's nice to have people that are actually in specifically with you guys because you're actively engaged, which means that you have an opportunity to reach people that that would otherwise be unreachable to people like me or to people like so I I am excited about the opportunity to be able to talk to members of your audience that may that may not overlap with mine.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Right. And the and and something that maybe your audience doesn't know is that Matt and I are active cops. He's about to retire. And then Banning, when we when he started with us, was also an active cop, but he happened to retire. I'm in this until I die, so I'm gonna be a cop for at least the next 10, 15 years. I have learned so much from doing this and different perspectives that I have directly taken into law enforcement to try to affect change from the people's perspective. And that has been huge to me because I feel like I've I've been a cop 20 years. I feel like I'm the best cop I've ever been because of doing this for the last five years, because of exactly what you're talking about, is having these conversations, getting out of the fishbowl. I didn't even realize I was in a fishbowl until I started doing this.

SPEAKER_04 6:10

And I was they gave you the trespass morning, and they were like, sir, this is Bass Pro Shops. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. I was Aquarium, Eric.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

But we're gonna have a hard time if you make me laugh all day. Sorry, sorry, sorry. We're talking about I was like, I'm a gamer, I like to play video games. I gotta get I gotta get my shoot 'em up games in. And he's like, I just do that in the bedroom. All right, I said I gotta shoot people in the face, and he's like, I just do that in the bedroom.

SPEAKER_05 6:34

I would never say that.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

He's like, allegedly, allegedly, he said this, guys. See, I can be a lawyer, it's easy. You just gotta say allegedly on everything.

SPEAKER_04 6:43

Yeah, you you you can't be a lawyer because you just violated the confidentiality part of that. Oh shit, it's all good though.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Don't worry.

SPEAKER_04 6:53

Oh hell, not blushing. I had to cut the grass today.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Okay, yeah.

Police Culture And Department Reputation

SPEAKER_02 7:00

All right, so we came here today. We uh we kind of like, what are we gonna talk about? So um, I James and I were brainstorming and he put out the idea of the Cenetobia stuff. Now, Cenetobia, before we get into the main story, I want you to know I did a little bit of research and they've already got a little bit of history. And so one of the things I want to challenge people in the audience is should that come into play when it comes to something like this? Does a department's reputation come into play? I think yes. And I'm going to open the floor to our guys on the panel here, but the example I like to give is New Orleans, a notoriously corrupt department. They've been under consent decree for as long as I've been alive, I think. Um and they continue to have issues. And it goes into asking is the reputation got something to do with how much eyeballs are on them and and what they do, or are they truly just continue? Is the culture, and I think James and I are gonna dig into that a little bit later, the culture of policing, is that the issue where they're at? And so when we're looking at Cenatobia, I think that's something to keep in your mind. Is the culture something that needs to be looked at? So I'm gonna go over to Matt. Matt, tell me what you think, buddy.

SPEAKER_06 8:15

It's that's absolutely a cultural thing, and and the history of what you you what you've done and and the reputation that you have as a police department just comes into play on any major incident, good or bad. So it it's you you set the standard, it's from the top down, and we all know that the chiefs aren't just put there yesterday uh and a new one. They they all come from the same culture for the most part, because the the chief that I have now was a patrolman when I started. So it's really just it is the culture of the apartment.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Banning, what about you, brother? You're not getting anything from you, man. Did you mute him? No, I didn't mute him. He's all right, you troubleshoot banning. James, I'll go to you.

SPEAKER_04 9:02

Yeah, well, I think I I don't think it's necessarily isolated to to police departments. I think that if you, you know, if you were to say something to me like, oh my gosh, I heard this about Eric or I heard this about Matt, and that was the the the first time I'd ever heard anything like that, I would be like, mm, that doesn't sound right. But if I've heard that Matt's done A, B, C, or D, and you're like, Matt did E, and I'm like, well, that lines up because he did A, B, C, or D, right? So like I don't um it's funny, they used to have a thing, and I'm not gonna get into the weeds on this, but there was a comedian one time um that I'll that I'll watch, and I can't remember if it was Eddie Griffin, but he was talking about um, it was actually talking about Whitney Houston. I can't remember if it was Eddie Griffin or who it was, but what the premise of what he said was that people don't say the same thing about you for 20 years and there not be some element of truth to it. And specifically when it comes to New Orleans or Cenatobia or whatever, um, I don't think that you have an entire department of bad police officers in Cenatobia. Just like I don't think because the person makes a certain amount of stakes, mistakes that makes them like inherently a bad person. But I do think it's a manifestation of whatever they've chosen to incentivize or prioritize because those are the things that drive our decision making. And so, you know, specifically with police departments, it's like you get these guys and they're patrolmen, and then 10 years later they're chief. And what happened in that 10-year period? Did they stay connected to the to the evolution of what happens on the street? Did they, if you got a guy that was a um patrolman in, for instance, 2010, and they're the chief in 2022, well, what happened between that period of time? Body cams are ubiquitous, uh the George Floyd riots happened, everything, everything, everything's changed in that period of time. And so, to the extent that they stayed connected or they got disconnected, that's gonna have an enormous impact on how they lead and whether they're out of touch. Because you and I both know, and I I don't say this to be disrespectful to you, Eric, but you're wearing a gold badge, and the world's different on the other side of that than it is on the front side. It just is, you know, in the same way that the world's different on the back side of a body camera than it is on the other side. And it there's no there's no real, you know, there there is a difference to sit and pretend that there's not is disingenuous. So I agree.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Yeah, there there is, and and for officers that are out there listening, nobody knows better than that than y'all that are that are out there in patrol. Sarge is not the one that's out there dealing with things in real time. Sarge comes in after the fact normally. Um, are there instances where Sarge is being a little too proactive and all of a sudden gets into something and needs an officer to come save his butt because he doesn't remember how to do all that stuff? Sure. That's uh that happens quite a bit. Um but that's not what we're referring to. And and James, you're absolutely 100% correct. Um, it is different from a supervisor's perspective perspective. What I do like about being the sergeant level, at least where I'm at, is I am I this is the end of the road for me. It one more rank and I'm out of it completely. Right now, I I get the best of both worlds, so to speak. Um so it's a different, it's a different look, but it also means I think I play the most one of the most important roles in guiding the culture of a department. And supervisors don't take that serious enough these days, in my opinion. Um, if you were to ask me honestly, how many supervisors are out there really doing what supervisors should be doing, I'd give it about a 30%. I I don't think it's on the the higher side. What do you think, Matt?

SPEAKER_06 12:45

Uh that's I I I agree.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Yeah, I don't see supervisors really, they're not out there trying to find what's better stuff for their guys. They're not looking out for they're watching their own people doing true audits, balance checks, and balances to make sure that their guys, the the quality assurance is is there for the public. Um, I don't see that happening. Uh, if we did, we might not have as many problems as we have. How many sergeants do you know are like, yeah, I'm checking my guy's body camera? Not because they want to, but because it's mandated that they check at least 10 videos every six months for that are at least five minutes or longer.

SPEAKER_06 13:23

It's like it's like taking care of your own home. It's like you're you're I I compare PDs to like households. Like, what are you guys tolerating in your household? Is is the father of the household or the leader of the household fostering good things and positive things because it's going to come out in your behavior.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Yes, I agree. And I think if we can get supervisors, if we can figure out some template uh to improve supervisors, patrol officers can get a lot better. But we haven't even touched into training, just getting to become a police officer, because we have so many failures there. Um, James, you were once a cop. So let me ask you when you became a cop other than the academy, when did you touch constitutional training again?

SPEAKER_04 14:09

Uh law school. Yeah, yeah. I I guess you were gonna say that. Because the thing is, um we didn't touch constitutional training in the academy. We um you brushed by it and said, excuse me, I'm not supposed to be here. With more layers, we did.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

I appreciate you letting me swear an oath to you, but I don't need you.

SPEAKER_04 14:33

Yeah, I I remember going over Terry Burst, Ohio in the police academy. We had a guy that was a um retired trooper who had become a lawyer, but and and I'm not trying to you know throw shade or anything like that. Super nice guy, like him, liked him fine. I didn't know him after I left law enforcement. We we're not friends or anything like that. But I remember he had written this little handbook and it was cool and it had all the little statutes in it, and and that was written by an attorney, but he's he was one of these guys that were more like connected to the the PBA or something. He stayed on like the the pro-cop side. And my thing is I you were talking about supervision, and I'm and what I'm what I'm sitting here thinking is like peel that back a little bit and let's look at how much supervision is is a commitment to leadership and and observing the impact of leadership that's built into the responsibilities of supervision, because you're sitting there talking about, you know, well, you have to review this many. We we teach people that the entire assignment of the job is to cover your ass. And then we forget that they carry that lesson with them throughout the entirety of their career. So now I'm watching 10 body cans a day because that's what my checklist says I have to do, but I'm not making a substantive approach. I'm just doing it so when the when the thing that we all know rolls downhill, it'll roll right over me because I got the boxes checked. And we do not have any substantive, I shouldn't say any, but it certainly is not the prominence thing that you see is that people are focused on leadership. They're focused on positions and they're focused on how that impacts them personally. And that's what you learn in the academy that, and you and I've talked about this, Eric, that I think is detrimental because you know, Chief shows up first day and he's like, uh, you know, rah, rah, rah, we're gonna be public servants and we're gonna do this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he walks out the door and you don't see his ass again for 16 weeks. And then he pops back

Training Gaps And Constitutional Blind Spots

SPEAKER_04 16:40

in on graduation day and he's like, you guys are public servants, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, and get out there. And you don't see his ass again until you're sitting up there talking to him about a one-day suspension, right? So what happens in the vacuum that gets created when he walks out the door? You learn that you're getting ready to get yelled at by a person whose ego is gonna decide everything about your life for the next 16 weeks. And then you have to learn how to navigate that. Well, you learn very quickly that in order to survive this or have a good time or benefit from this training, whatever, you've got to learn how to exist within the structure that they've created. And then, well, before long, you're gonna get out on the street. And guess who's creating the structure? Then you're creating the structure. And now the citizenry has to exist within the structure that you create. And all the while, whatever you had to learn to pass your test on criminal law or constitutional law or whatever, was just a mile marker on this journey to get you to the end so that you could take your ego and walk out on the street and it become the authority for how you're gonna do the rest of your career with no deference whatsoever to the law or the constitution or anything. And so, how do we expect these guys to learn how to do anything different when we've taught them that the most important thing about their job every single day is how they feel and what can happen to them if they screw up and whatever? And so they get this sort of self-insulated, protected thing, and everything becomes about them and how they navigate. And it it just gets lost on them, or maybe never introduced to them conceptually, that you're actually just an armed public, you know, customer service agent. I'm sorry to say that, but that's what the job of law enforcement is supposed to be. It's supposed to be in service to somebody else, and oh, by the way, you can die doing it. Right. And that's what we're all signed up for before we all get out of here. That's what we all sign up for and say, we're cool with this because there's glory in it and we're gonna do it. And then it gets lost somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Yeah, and and what drives me insane. Now I've sworn an oath twice. Um I'm in the military still. For those that don't know, I'm still uh Air Force Security Forces member, which is a military cop. Um, I've been doing that since 06. Um, and I'm also in law enforcement, so uh municipal cop. I don't mention where I'm at, it's not hard to figure out, but um, I have to keep it separate from the podcast. Anyway, talk about the oath. Now, in the military, holy cow, do they make you I don't obviously there's a level of brainwashing in the military. There is. Um, it takes age and wisdom to start seeing through it and all of that stuff. But as I got through it, I one of the things I'll give the military uh high credit for is everything comes back to the Constitution, you know, and they'd always remind you that's the taxpayers, that's how they frame things. Everything like you you bump a building with the vehicle. Hey, that's a taxpayer's car, not yours. Like that is how we chastise each other, it's in the culture. Do they do that in law enforcement?

SPEAKER_04 19:40

I've never heard that happen in law enforcement.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Yeah, right. And and and like I'm trying to get at is we always go back to the oath of the constitution of the military. In law enforcement, not only did we just breeze over it in the academy, we never touch it again. The only time we really do is when we start getting new case law stuff that pertains um to what we're doing out in the field, and it has a liability issue for the department.

SPEAKER_04 20:05

And why? Because our ass got burned because we didn't do that before.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Is it yes, a CYA uh for case law, and then we're gonna talk about usually arrest, search, and seizure. That's usually where it always falls back to. That's not constitutional training. That is not making somebody understand an oath that they swore to.

SPEAKER_04 20:22

How are you sort of who didn't understand it?

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Right. How are you putting your hand up and swearing to God, if you believe in God, how are you swearing to God that you're going to put your life before anyone else's for this oath that you don't know? Now, I'm not saying you got to go out there and know the Third Amendment, uh, but you should know the five elements of the First Amendment. You should know all the rest of them. And and they don't. And that that's the foundational issue to what we're getting into when we're talking about cultural issues in policing and ego, because you nailed it when you said you get out there. My ego was into the constitution. Like, yeah, I get to defend the constitution. Like, as corny as that sounds, as that was what I got kind of amped up about. Matt, was you the same way?

SPEAKER_06 21:10

Yeah, I'm it's all about freedom. Like, I I the there was a mission, and uh and I'm a freedom guy. Um, I think that what what people are realizing now, this and the scary part is what people are seeing is it's a layer deeper because all of this stuff is coming out before our eyes with the when the inception of body cam and first amendment auditors, where people are thinking, like, okay, well, this is going out right in front of us on camera. What has been going on all of these years? Why are these guys so ignorant to what they swore an oath to uphold? And I think it's it's got everyone like really thinking deep about this.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

Yeah, how many uh Pasadena um roll call uh choir practice accidental discharge shootings you think there have been that nobody knows about, right? Oh, hundreds.

SPEAKER_06 21:54

Oh, that was that was a that was a you know that was a trend a while back. It was a street trend. Up to the camera. That was a chit's outcome. Yeah, dude. That's all they were do they were doing. They've probably been doing that for the longest time.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Yeah. I when that video came out, I put out a reaction video. Um, for those that don't know what we're talking about, there's a video that came out very recently, passing police. Looks like they're in a parking garage, like they're getting ready for shift or uh shift just ending or whatever it is, but they're checking out their patrol cars. There's two guys standing at the back of a patrol car with the the back end open. As the other patrol car comes up, you can see it on dash cam. The officer that's standing outside draws his firearm and points it at the car coming up. And then he just slowly puts it back in like it's a game. And then the next thing you know, he's getting shot by the person sitting in the patrol car. And then they come out and triage him. And I said, that is not something that they just did on the fly. That is cultural. That is something that has been a game going on there for who knows how long. And nobody, this is the problem that people have with cops, is we aren't policing our own. Somebody should have put that in check a long time ago. The moment I've ever ever seen you playing with your firearm like that, you're done. You are done. I'm going to throw the book at you the best I can as a sergeant. James can go into detail about how much power I actually have to do that uh in a department, but I can get the ball rolling with IA and do all that stuff. Um, our IA is really good where we're at. But that that's that's a no, there's no there's no pass on that. You have no business in law enforcement anymore. If that if that's a joke you're willing to play, you don't belong on a force. You don't have the maturity for it. This is not a game.

SPEAKER_04 23:36

Part of the issue too, Eric, is that I mean, what percentage of police officers would be like, oh, he's a dumbass. God, I can't believe he did that. Right, but don't see it, the the gravity of what it is. And so, you know, you have more power in that position as a sergeant than you realize. The problem is you're gonna bring a whole lot of attention to yourself because the power is in the pen, the power is in the documentation, it's in the willingness to speak up, it's in the willingness to put something on the record that somebody would have to cover up and do something about. And that's the scary part because then you're like, wait, now now this involves me and it didn't before, you know. Um, and it's funny too, because you one of the things that I think that I have grown to hate more than anything else is cops in these, all of these body cam scenarios, literally like they're so high on their own false sense of virtue that they're like, oh, and you've got guns. And it'll be like, well, I take Xanax, or I have bipolar disorder, or you know, I smoke weed. And it's like, oh, you really have any business, you know, oh, carrying a gun. And they'll like red flag you in a heartbeat based on their own virtue. Meanwhile, they're praying and spraying their buddies with their sidearm, and and it's lost on them. And the reason is because they have an overconfidence in their ability to do ABC that and and that so what happens is you have this us versus them thing that becomes a bifurcation in their mind where they're like, Well, I'm okay with me doing that. It's I have the same problem. I'll drive 100 miles an hour because I know what threshold braking is, and I've been in pursuits, and I've I learned how to drive 100 miles an hour at an airport where nothing was at risk except for me rolling it or something, you know. Like I'm very confident in my own ability to drive. But as my son-in-law famously said, if my asshole had teeth, you'd have a hole in your seat. When I'm in the passenger seat, you know, and he's like, I he won't even ride with me because you know, I have a lot of confidence in me. So it's just like that, it really like you could spend the rest of your life trying to figure out how to just what we call in the law issue spot or uncover the issues that nobody even acknowledges to get to the bottom of how we fix this.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Yeah, you know what I mean. Yep. Um, I want to get I think we've warmed up pretty good. I think we we've got the crowd going. Let me go over to the audience real quick. Harrison said, uh, if I pull my gun on someone in public as a joke, I would be in jail.

SPEAKER_06 26:10

That should have been charged.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

Yep. Yeah, oh yeah, they should be charged. Let's let's not get that twisted either. Mr. Bill Fold said it's difficult to get police to see the gravity of the situation when they live on a level above us mere peasant civilians. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

Um well, they live without consequences, regardless of whether there's a sociological layering or hierarchy. They live without consequence. It's hard to get somebody to be worried about something that they never have to worry about.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:38

They we want a last game scared of the dark, bro. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Like Yeah. We need to have a qualified immunity um episode with you. I won't do that tonight because God, that would eat everything up. Um, and I have actually another attorney, um, Anthony Ben Bandiero, who really specializes in uh arrest search and seatures stuff. Um, but uh also just like you, former cop, turn lawyer. Um and I think having you two on here would be just gangbusters for uh real qualified immunity chat.

SPEAKER_04 27:13

Who you need to have on here, and I'm not sure have him, that's great, but not me. Um Brandon Grable is Brandon Grable. Brandon Grable is a civil rights attorney in Texas. Oh he's done this, you know. If you actually observe how we got qualified immunity, I'm not gonna get on a tangent. I was talking about there's there's a lack of consequences at every single layer in law enforcement before you ever get to qualified immunity. I'm not talking about qualified immunity. Cops are scared of people who can fire them and people who can put them in jail. Qualified immunity is not, it's a problem, right? But but really qualified immunity is about people being able to recover civilly. If you didn't have these guys existing and acting completely without consequence, you wouldn't ever have to worry about qualified immunity because they would have consequences along the way before they become this person that just doesn't care what they do to people. And so that it, yes, qualified immunity is an issue. But anyway, it's very interesting. Um, I would suggest everybody go to Brandon Grable's channel and watch his interview with the law professor about how we actually got qualified immunity. It was a scribbiner's error that was mistranslated into something. Like it was it was a line of the federal um statute that got miss like it was a scribbiner's error that got into a case that was never intended to be that in the first place, and it's turned into the what we have, and it was never ever ever contemplated to be what it is. Uh very fast. Brandon's a guy to talk to about that, and he's for me arm, he's an army too.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

So I didn't realize that's clearly established, right?

SPEAKER_04 28:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, I didn't know him by his actual name. HBO Matt just hit me up. He goes, Brandon is one of my lawyers.

SPEAKER_04 28:56

Yeah, so he's on fire. He he Brandon has an awesome channel, he he does great content and he's a very smart guy.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Hell yeah. Uh yeah, that's that's awesome. Um, okay, so this was your idea for the case today. So um, what made this case worth discussing tonight, sir?

SPEAKER_04 29:14

Well, to me, uh, I think that it's a aside from the obvious, which is that a one-year-old child is dead over at worst shoplifting compounded by potential again. The other thing that's happened, which is so if you're not familiar, which everybody's probably familiar, but if you're not familiar, there was a situation in Sanatobia, Mississippi, where a lady and her one-year-old child and her friend were inside the Walmart in Cenatobia. The the friend or the the lady, Miss Wiley and her child, Cohen Wiley, the one-year-old baby, are exiting the store, and the lady that's with them is behind them. This is according to her, this is the only information we have. I can't imagine why nobody's saying anything. But anyway, whatever. Um, I'm having a hard time with the benefit of the doubt in this case. But anyway, mom and baby exit the store. Um, and somebody there, whether it's an off-duty police officer that has this incestuous relationship with Walmart or whatever, off-duty moonlight, whatever, um, tries to detain them. I don't, there's no information as to whether or not it's a Walmart loss prevention person or a cop or whoever tries to detain the lady that they're with. Mom says, Well, I just kept going to have anything to do with me. And at most, the allegation is that there's a there's an allegation that there was a pack of diapers being shoplifted. Although I have taken the position and I believe it to be true, that in every case I've ever seen where there's information out there that would twist the public opinion in favor of the police, there'd be a loss prevention officer, there'd be a Walmart surveillance video out, there'd be a receipt that didn't show these diapers, there'd be a picture of this lady walking out with it. There'd be all this stuff so that they could get the heat off of them. And we've got zilch of that. Nothing. But anyway, that's the most serious allegation. So they go out to the car, mom and baby first, they get in the car and um then followed quickly, I guess, by this lady that was they were attempted to detain. Nobody stops. Uh, they all get in the car and they try to leave. The lady in the in the driver's seat backs apparently into a car. Somewhere along the way, the allegation gets made that one of the officers um feels like they were having a car driven towards them and they fired several rounds into the car, striking and killing the one-year-old child and striking um the driver who was at some point in critical condition. So that's the obvious problem with Cenatobia, but I have a personal history with Cenotobia where I have reached out time and time and time and time again because I've been in some way involved. And you can look at my catalog of videos on my channel, and I've been over backwards to try to help Cenatobia, offering to go down there on multiple occasions at my own expense to

Cenatobia Walmart Shooting Overview

SPEAKER_04 32:05

train every police officer in their department for free. Um, and they simply aren't interested. And so to me, it's it's an it's an opportunity to have a broader discussion about why do we not want to help ourselves in law enforcement? Why do we reject anything that is not our idea? And the answer is because of ego, right? It's this it if you could trace every problem in law enforcement back to one single thing, it would be ego. Every problem that exists in the institution of law enforcement can all be traced back to one guy thinking he's more important than anybody else, or that his feelings matter than anybody else. And that is not helpful when the entire society also in the last 20 years has been taught that to prioritize their subjective feelings over everything else, too. And so you get all these people, and it's like, well, who matters more? And my position is we pay these guys to do the right thing. This lady has free will, she's a free American citizen, and she accepts the consequences. It's real hard for me to deal with when I've got to accept the consequences for my decisions, but they don't. And we pay them for that. I got a real problem with that, and that's the real issue that I see in Cenatopia because I'm tired of treating the symptom of a fever without trying to figure out what the frigging disease is and get some antibiotics in us and try to figure out how do we fix this, as opposed to just being like, eh, you know, I'll be all right.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Yeah. I agreed. Um, I want to for all everybody out there, we've we've already amassed at least uh half a thousand, almost a thousand people watching live, which is crazy. Um, please take the time. James, uh, he's a busy man. If you are on our stuff or Matt's stuff, go over to James's channel, like, follow, subscribe for that. Um, and vice versa. If you like what we're doing here, putting on types of shows like this, having tough conversations, go to Matt, go to two cops one donut, give us a like, follow, subscribe. This does take a lot of planning and stuff to put together. We're not asking for your money. Uh, we just want your support to show us that we're doing the right thing. So, um, with that said, uh, I want to put some context to some people that may not understand. I'm more of a visual person. So I've got the video of uh what a witness where it's at.

SPEAKER_03 34:21

I've been waiting for this. The body cam.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Not the body cam. I wish. I know. Yeah, yeah. I had it the whole time. Oh my god, you know how many subscribers I'd get right then? You know how many rounds you'd be having fire. Oh, I know. So um, I'm gonna show a witness related video that was the it was just aftermath, after the shooting, I believe, which probably a lot of people have seen. Then I'm gonna show um, I think it is Ben Crump's video with his client who is uh the mother of the victim.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

Um I don't think that was Trump, I think it was a community activist, but yeah, it's on his page.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

So okay, yeah, I'll share it. Yeah, yeah, I'll give his credit, I'll give him credit for the page. And then um and then yeah, and then we'll I'll I will read what Cenatobia PD official statement is on it, which is a joke. Oh long partner, yeah. Yeah, so let me share the screen here. I am a one-man show, so bear with me, y'all.

SPEAKER_04 35:18

Really? I see three of us here, bud.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

Uh yeah, well, I'm the only one operating on this shit. Shut it. Shut it, Southern Draw. All right, um, let's hit play on this and we'll make it biggie size.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

These are the moments after an officer shot at a car outside of Walmart in Mississippi, killing a one-year-old boy. A car with its door open is seen fleeing from several officers who are on foot. Police were reportedly responding to a shoplifting call involving diapers when one-year-old Cohen Wiley was fatally shot while inside the vehicle with his mother and an unidentified driver, according to the Associated Press. His mother, Felicia Wiley, says police were vocal.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Okay, so I don't want to keep going down the rabbit hole of what this guy says. So there's the video of that. Um, let me go over to That's literally all we've seen of this incident. Right. Um I want to go into the um Miss Wiley's uh account of it. It's only about two and a half minutes long, so I'm gonna play the whole thing out, guys. Just bear with us real quick. Um, this is on uh YouTube, or I'm sorry, Facebook.

SPEAKER_04 36:28

Yeah, the ABC 24, I think, is the one out of Memphis, is the one that sat down with this lady.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_04 36:34

Yeah. But it's pretty been widely circulated now, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

It's let's get this going. Keith.

SPEAKER_07 36:41

Alicia Wiley.

SPEAKER_09 36:43

Alicia Wiley um lost her son to the negligence of law enforcement in Sinatobia, Mississippi. Um, can you please tell what happened?

SPEAKER_07 36:56

It was me and I saw in the lip of Walmart. They tried to stop her.

Witness Video And The City Statement

SPEAKER_07 37:12

She looked at my baby. She was meeting. She was a if they try to charge you anything. But I get I don't know what that I can.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

All right. So, and then real quick, let me share what Sanatobia has said. Says our community has experienced heartbreaking tragedy, and the city of Sanatobia extends its deepest condolences to the family grieving the loss of a child. We also ask that you keep our law enforcement officers, first responders, medical personnel, and everyone affected by this tragedy and your thoughts and prayers. The Mississippi Bureau of Investigation is leading the independent investigation, and the city is fully cooperating with all appropriate authorities. As the investigation continues, our focus remains on ensuring that the facts are thoroughly examined and that accurate information is shared through the appropriate official channels. We understand that our emotions are high and that many questions remain. We respectfully ask our community to avoid speculation and the spread of unverified information while the investigation is underway. Please allow the investigation process to take its course so that the facts, not rumors or assumptions, guide our understanding of the tragic event. We ask our community to continue responding with compassion, respect, and grace as we support all those affected this at this difficult time. And I love the uh I don't know if you guys can see it, but the if you've ever copied and pasted anything from Chat GPT, it puts those those weird spacers in there.

SPEAKER_04 40:22

Yeah, those are called M-dashes. Yeah, yeah, they're all over in this thing. Because people will know.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

Yeah, yeah, they're all over in this thing. So they definitely uh Chat GPT their own emotional response.

SPEAKER_04 40:35

So well, let me uh this is why I categorize their statement as long fart noise because oh, by the way, let's feel bad for the cops too, because you know they're really having a hard time right now. Look, it's really hard for me to say something that is disingenuous, no matter who it's about. I'm sure that somebody on that scene that day who was wearing a badge and a gun, maybe everybody except one guy, is really struggling with this. I'm sure they are. But it's just it shows how out of touch and tone deaf you are. When you it's like saying somebody saying to you in your interpersonal relationships and saying, Man, you really hurt my feelings. And you're like, you know, I'm really sorry that that you made me do that to you. That that's exactly what it sounds like. And it's literally like you can tell that they just don't, these words don't understand what they think, they don't mean what they think they mean. They're literally, I call it adult peekaboo because they're like, We are committed to transparency. Okay, right. I'm not here, you know, like a three-year-old will be like, I'm not here. No, you're I mean, yeah, no, you there you are, you know, and this ain't transparency, this is blocking the truth. And so, and the thing is, I personally, we had a situation back last summer, so I feel bad for my audience who's watched my video on this because I basically said the same thing, but there was a lady named Breshari Faulkner who at the Sanatobia Walmart dropped her. Well, she didn't. It turns out she didn't, but the story was a Sanatobia police officer walked up to her because she was parked in a handicapped spot. She had a handicapped placard, she did no investigation whatsoever, she just demands her ID in a private parking lot when she's sitting there with a placard. And I don't remember the whole thing now, but I did a very detailed analysis on it. It was one of my biggest videos that I've ever had on my channel. And anyway, they screwed everything up. And within 24 hours, they had surveillance camera at Walmart out into the public square, showing because what the the whole the story that Brashari told them was that she dropped her grandmother off. And what actually happened, I think, and again, I've not asked because that it doesn't matter. My point was it doesn't matter if you understand constitutional sequencing. These are the things you have to establish before you can go seizing people. It the fact that you were right in the aftermath does not make it okay, you know. So the the story that Brashari told him, I think, was that she dropped her grandmother off. It was her grandmother's placard, whatever. So they, of course, after that she gets in trouble, somebody's got to call her grandmother and say, hey, they're they're arresting Brashari. And so somebody dropped grandma off, and grandma's coming through the parking lot. So of course, the Sanatobia police immediately had to put out a video of Brashari's grandmother getting shown up, getting dropped off the Walmart to so that they could tilt public opinion. We just don't have that here. Right. Those facts are not evidence.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

And why wouldn't you follow the a working platform that's already proved itself in the past for you in the matter of accountability and transparency? So I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 43:43

I don't think anybody in the city of Cynatobia thinks that what happened here is okay. The problem is when you don't separate yourself from it, how are we supposed to know that?

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:55

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

And so again, I I I'm gonna fall back. Back on what I brought up earlier when it comes to the culture of a place. You've already this is one thing that you could give them credit for being open and transparent quickly to try to put a matter to bed. Like you said, I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_04 44:14

When it's good for them, though.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

For them, yes. That's the point that I'm trying to get to. Is that that worked out in their favor then? So if you believed that this was going to be in your favor, you would have already released something, let's say, and um at least more than that weak ass

Patterns And Prior Incidents In Town

SPEAKER_02 44:30

chat GPT uh statement that you put out there. And then let's go back to August 2023 with uh Quantavious Eason. 20 uh for those that don't know, um I'm gonna read this because I couldn't memorize it.

SPEAKER_04 44:46

I've got a I've got a tidbit to this that you probably don't know that you're gonna find fascinating, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

So he was waiting in a car while his mother was inside a lawyer lawyer's office. He needed to use the restroom, saw there was no public restrooms available, and urinated behind his mom's vehicle. An officer observed this, and an additional officer responded, and the child was ultimately taken to the police station and placed in a holding cell. 10 years old. At 10 years old. So you tell me there is not a cultural issue going on, and it shouldn't be taken into account when you're arresting 10-year-olds. Now you can say they didn't arrest him, but that kid thought he was arrested.

SPEAKER_04 45:26

I can direct you to a video of the former chief of police who I refer to as chicken shit Richard Chandler, urinating on his own car outside of his home in the city of Sinatobia around this same time frame. It's on the, you know, one of the community, what's going on in and around Sanatobia. You you probably, if you had time or whatever, you can probably go to their Facebook page right now, pull it up, pull up Richard Chandler, and there's a video, and I'll tell you privately where I got the video, and it will blow your mind. But um, but I but I got the video from a from a very intimately connected source with Richard Chandler, and somehow it got out on the community Facebook group. But the same time his officers are arresting a 10-year-old for peeing outside who just happens to have a pigmentation problem, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:27

I see where you're going.

SPEAKER_04 46:28

He's doing it, he's doing it as a grown man, yeah, with children older than that, which is worse, in my opinion. When you're an adult, you gotta be hypocritical, right? Yes, it's a problem.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

Absolutely. Um Matt, you've been quiet for a little bit, buddy. I want to I want to give you I want to give you time to weigh in. But before I do, Matt, you know me, one of the things I hate is when trolls want to chirp. One thing that we do here on our channel is we call people out. And there is somebody in the chat that has been flaming over and over that Matt silences people and censors them on his page because they don't donate to his uh nonprofit organization that Matt devotes his freaking life to, by the way. Um, which Matt, I want to make sure we talk about that tonight so we can get more people to that. Matt, do you want to address the rumors that you silence people because they don't donate to your chat or to your I wouldn't I wouldn't know the first thing about how to even work the buttons to silence anybody, first of all.

SPEAKER_06 47:25

Yes. I I I don't silence or censor. I know I get a lot of complaints that that uh comments get taken down. I don't that's not me, that's YouTube, and uh I would never I would never hold against anyone to to donate to my nonprofit. That's that's that's pretty ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

Okay, there we go, clear it up. So, Matt, now that we're on to more serious things, sir. Uh what's your thoughts so far on what we've covered here?

SPEAKER_06 47:48

I'm just I've been thinking this whole time tactically. Um, when has it ever been, and and we've seen this, this is a repeating story. When has it ever been tactically sound to shoot into moving vehicles? I've had I've had a million vehicles come towards me, around me, dangerous hot cars. I just my only thought is get the heck out of the way. What what what is gonna happen with this two-ton piece of metal coming straight at you? Uh you if you hit the driver, what what's the what is the car gonna stop right there? I I why why is this not addressed at a high level? I I want to find somebody that can show me where it's tactically worked to shoot into a moving car instead of just getting out of the way.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Not to mention, let's go into police firing in the in the beginning. How well do we shoot just in the academy and then at paper targets? Horribly, horribly. What a simple thing.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

And now you're telling me shoot more than once to qualify with their gun every year.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Right. And now you mean to tell me you're gonna John Wicket on a moving target through windshields and all that stuff at a busy Walmart. Um, I have it like in other cops. If you're listening to me and like, well, you weren't there, da-da-da. True, I wasn't there. I I don't know where these cops were positioned at, but from what we have so far, they were not in front of the vehicle, which that's a good start. Cops have notoriously put themselves in an exant circumstance by standing in front of a vehicle. And to me, there's no court ruling on this yet, but I have a big problem with cops putting themselves in an exigent circumstance that's avoidable, especially when we look at the totality of the circumstances with the offense. We're not talking about a guy that just robbed a bank that's an imminent danger to the public. We're talking about two ladies with a baby that took diapers. End of the day, even if I'm standing next to the car and be like, all right, ladies, we'll get you in a we'll get you down the road. We're gonna get you in an hour, we're gonna get you in a week, whatever it is, you're not getting away. You're gonna be from the area, we'll got your plate. This ain't gonna be a hard case, but no, now we have a dead fucking one-year-old.

SPEAKER_03 49:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

If that doesn't infuriate you as a cop, get out of the profession. That would infuriate me. Now, let me step back. I don't want to act like there is zero accountability for the two ladies. There is you you you allegedly maybe shoplifted. Okay. Is that the end of the world? No. Should you be doing that with your kid? Should you be risking that with somebody else you're with? Should you have not gotten in the car and taken off? There's all these things. That's obvious. I don't wanna I don't want to pick at that because that's too easy that's easy. We know there's some accountability there and they'll get that. But now we're talking about a homicide for stolen diapers. We have to look at the whole

Why Shooting Into Cars Fails

SPEAKER_02 50:40

picture as cops, and we have to own that. Training these days, at least where I'm at, we are trained not to shoot or put ourselves in front of a moving vehicle on foot. That is how we're trained. I loved where I'm at. I love that our guys trained that way and we know to get the hell out of the way, don't put ourselves there. Are there instances where you can get caught out in you know the DMZ? Yeah, it can happen when we have to be open-minded when that happens, and you'll know it when you see it, I think. You'll know it when you see it. But if we're gonna get into it on this, kind of what to what Matt's saying and all that, why are you getting in front of a 2,000-pound missile over stolen diapers? What do you got on that, James?

SPEAKER_06 51:25

Sorry, Matt, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Oh, yeah, Matt, go ahead, buddy.

SPEAKER_06 51:27

I was gonna say it's so petty. I've I mean, in all my years, I've had something so petty. I I would just pay for the diapers myself rather than do the report. I was just telling you, if you're that desperate, let me let me pay for them. Walmart, can you let her go? I'll take care of this. That's how petty that is.

SPEAKER_04 51:43

Man, I had a guy one time when Tasers first came out, and it was like two or three o'clock in the morning, and I think it was on Father's Day, which is weird. And the guy was walking through the McDonald's drive-thru with like a three-year-old, no shoes on the baby. And the people at McDonald's called and they were like, That's something's off about this. I got there and I just trying to talk to the guy, and he leaves the kid behind and takes off running, right? And so I go after him because now he's just left his kid in public with no clothes on, right? So, so and I'm sitting here thinking my way through that. Did I really have even anything to chase him for? But I could at least go back and say, Well, at least he endangered the child and left the child alone, right? So I've got that. So I'm going through. We get to this tunnel and we start fighting for my shit, my bat shit, my shit on my back belt. And I deploy the taser. This was an X26, it had it had two rounds, it had one in each cartridge, okay. One and it was gone. So we didn't he got the first one, but he outran it because he was, you know, get he was already moving. And I don't know if you paid attention, but your boy, you know, I ain't fast or anything. But uh anyway, so anyway, I did okay. I got to him. Um, but when I got to him, it was a drive stun and my hands, and we were fighting for the taser, and and I lost control of the taser, okay. And I was maybe a 24-year-old kid at this time, and I drew my weapon because I know what happens when somebody gets your taser. But in that moment, and this was some something that I saw in the Ray Shard Brooks incident in Atlanta. In that moment, I had enough wherewithal as a 24-year-old to say, well, as long as I keep my distance, he can't hurt me with a drive stun on a taser. And I let him walk because I was I was gassed. There was no more fight in me, and I did not want to kill this guy. Now, I'm not saying that makes me great, I'm not saying it makes me special. All I'm saying is we have to stop pretending that these guys don't have choices to make. Yes, and that every single choice, and why is it that we're sitting here talking? Not I don't mean it like that, Eric, but why is it that we are armchair quarter quarterbacking her actions? You want to be held responsible for all the stupid shit you did when you were a young parent, when you were 18, 19, 20 years old. My son was born when I was 19. I don't remember a lot from that period of time, but I know I wasn't great at it, right? You know what I mean? Yeah, so you want to be defined by the things you do when you're in your 20s. I don't, right, I don't, but all we're we never inventory what they do. I mean, and you can say, well, yeah, you know, that that's the whole narrative. It's like cops, well, you just pick apart everything they do. If they would pick it apart themselves, we wouldn't have to. Yes, yes, and to your point, Matt, that you made about tactically, think about the 21-foot rule. When I and I but we were talking about the cops and their qualifications. I went, I was an assistant district attorney in Tennessee in 2023, before I started my YouTube channel. My YouTube channel says 2021, but I made like one video and then I didn't make any more. And I started, I really started making content March 24. So in 2023, I was an assistant district attorney in Tennessee and I wanted to teach firearms. So I became a post-certified firearms instructor. And I went to a post-certified firearms instructor school put on by the Tennessee Law Enforcement Training Academy, and I was the only person out of 30 some active police officers that shot 100% on the qualification. And I hadn't been in law enforcement in 10 years. Damn wow, 12 years. But a car's close enough to you that it could hit you and you've got time to draw your weapon, and that's a justified thing.

unknown 56:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:04

Makes no sense. It doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_04 56:06

It doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

Yeah, and I want to get to this comment. I uh it's either from Matt or it doesn't tell me whose channel it's from. That's either Matt or uh James, but it said Barn v. Barnes v. Felix said you can't create the exigency, then react to it. That's not my understanding, is not true. Barnes v. Felix basically said that you go you you now have to be judged by the totality of the circumstances versus the um the the moment in time or however they they put moment of thread, doctor. Moment of thread.

SPEAKER_04 56:37

And I've got videos of this on my channel, was Graham versus Connor is a totality of the circumstances test. It's been followed by I think there are 13 circuits, nine of them were following Graham versus Connor, where we look at the entire, you know, the entire thing, not this little snapshot, and particularly in Barnes v. Felix, that's out of Texas, by the way, and you I'm sure you know that, Eric. But that's out of Texas, and Ashton Barnes was a driver who was stopped for unpaid toll violations. It's another, this is really very similar, really.

SPEAKER_02 57:06

Huge, huge crime.

SPEAKER_04 57:08

Yep. He starts to leave in a vehicle, which is probably a felony in Texas. Fleeing in a motor vehicle is probably a felony in Texas. Um, and Felix jumps on the door jam of the car and within two seconds fires either one or two rounds into the car. Uh, Ashton Barnes comes to a stop, he dies. The entire issue in Barnes v. Felix was the Texas appellate court was like, we would like to decide this case on the merits. And to be frank, I don't think they wanted to decide it for the cop. But they were hamstrung by the fact that Texas in the Fifth Circuit were stuck with this moment of threat doctrine. And they had to have horse blinders on and look at only what happened. What so the whole question under Barnes v. Felix was are we to stick with what Texas says we have to use for our analysis, which is that all we can know is that Felix is standing on the door jam at a rocket that's going into traffic at 60 miles an hour. What should he do? Is he justified in shooting into the car based solely on the fact he's on this with blinders on? Okay. And the Supreme Court made no opinion whatsoever about the totality of circumstances about Barnes versus Felix on the merits of the case at all. That case has still not been decided on the merits. And it probably won't because they'll settle, because they because now they don't have the horse blinders anymore. So we probably are never gonna get a decision on the merits of what happened with the death of Ashton Barnes. Barnes versus Felix only said Texas has been fucking it up. Y'all got to get your shit together and do it the way everybody else did. That's literally the only thing it's said for.

SPEAKER_02 58:43

Yeah, agreed. Um, and and a lot of people, and and I'm not whoever made that comment, like I don't blame you. It's kind of the misconception of that case. A lot of people expected them to address officer-created exigency. Like a lot of people thought that that was gonna happen. I I was under no illusion that that was ever going to happen. They didn't want to get it.

SPEAKER_04 59:04

Oh, it's ignore it.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

That's yeah, um, it's not gonna happen. Um, and just you know, to add on to what James is saying, it's one of the it's one of the problems that we have with this the criminal justice system to begin with, is these settlements happen in cases never get uh put to a conclusion where we can set real precedents, uh, which I'm not gonna go back into qualified immunity, but it's part of the problem with qualified immunity. Uh me and Matt are both uh uh think we both think qualified immunity is fucked up. Um so we'll we'll just put that out there. We think it's fucked up. Uh I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but sometimes you can't avoid but bringing it up. So I digress. Um now uh Matt from I want you to put your detective shoes on for a second, okay? I know it's been a minute, buddy, but I want you to put your detective shoes on from your perspective. What do you look at before deciding to act on a case like this criminally for the officers?

SPEAKER_06 1:00:04

Well, there's gonna be I mean you you where do you where would you start? That'd be the the the basic scene evidence is where you where I would start. Um but it goes so much deeper, and you can go into okay, what's his record like, what's his past like? Um has this has stuff like this been an issue um before this happened? Um not sure about any of that in this case, but I would definitely I mean it's got gonna be on video, the whole thing. It's just gonna be plenty of Walmart got video in every store, so I don't I'm confused why we haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

Yeah, you're not confused. I'm like kind of locking up all of a sudden.

unknown 1:00:40

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

I like froze up. I'm I apologize.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:44

But there was actually uh right where that car is, there was actually a lady, which we haven't seen the video yet. MBI has it. There was a lady sitting in a car, and you know how like um you'll have your at Walmart, you'll have your angled spots, and then you'll have your handicapped spots that are like facing the lane, like the opposite way one of those cars videoing it on herself. She's got it all. She's got it all. And I will just tell you too that if you look at the um forensic, just the forensics that we have, it there's a downward angle entrance wound, an entrance wound. The it looks to me like the shot came from somewhere around the front quarter panel to the side at the three o'clock. Yeah, yeah. Downward trajectory entrance, and the window's gone, and the testimony is that it came in through this way. I'm having a hard time figuring out how you but I've said this and I believe this to be true. Personally, I would have to acknowledge because I'm loyal only to objective facts, but I would have to acknowledge that there would be a different legal analysis. But you could show me video of this dude having three car three of the tires having run over him, and I'm still not gonna give him a pass on shooting into a car that he knew had a baby in it because he watched him walk out. Right. We all know by the time we're getting involved in this, we're making decisions based on the fact that there's a baby there and we know it, and it's all over shop flipping at most, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:05

So this is where we're gonna get into the ego side, yeah. At least at least I feel like this is the window for this opportunity. So um, I want people to be aware we've been talking about ego so much on this show that we we took an instructor from where I work uh who created an ego course for recruits based on how much we've talked about ego being an issue in law enforcement. So, like any good instructor, we recognized the gap in training and we fixed it. We tried to fill that with how do you educate recruits on ego and what it is. And we actually put the full class on our live. Um, it was great. Um, and you can actually see it where we have it highlighted as a a playlist where you if if you see a cop, you think there's an ego issue at their department, refer it to that to that playlist. They get free training. So, and and I'll give you guys the the the long story short version of it is basically officers, generally speaking, get 99.9% compliance out in the field. Would you would you guys agree with that, you both being cops? 99.9% of the time people comply with what we ask. But when they don't, that's where officers are unprepared. Officers expect the badge and the gun to get the compliance that they're asking for, and through that compliance comes complacency. When complacency happens, we get caught off guard and we reach an unmet expectation. And this is what triggers the ego. When unmet expectation happens, we go from thinking logically and reasonably, reasonably, over to that emotional response. Oh, I don't have anything, I wasn't ready. There's nothing in the chamber, no pun intended, ready for me to counter you not complying with me. So now I'm going to emotionally react. I'm either going to get mad, my ego's going to take over. How dare you not listen to me? Who is this person? Everybody else listens to me, but you're not. And this is where the ego starts to take over. The emotion, the uh, what is that, the amygdala and all that stuff? All of your logic and reasoning comes from your frontal lobe, which we can go into cops becoming cops before they're 25. And that goes into a whole other thing about the prefrontal lobe not being fully developed, um, making them more impulsive. But this is what that class entails. We go into that. So officers can start to recognize when they've switched from that logic and reasoning over to the emotional side because that's important, knowing when you've triggered that and switched so they can recognize the behavior and switch back. That is a type of intelligence that can be taught. It is a muscle memory thing. You have to practice it, you have to be cognizant of it. No different than having emotional intelligence to what Matt said. Matt's reaction of I would have bought their diapers for them, that is a that is not a Matt's a great guy. I love him. But that that has inherently been trained in him. He has continued

Ego Triggers And Emotional Control

SPEAKER_02 1:05:00

that behavior, and that is why that's his first instinct versus these officers who I and I'm speculating, charged up this moment by stop, police, come here, you're gonna talk to me. And now we've got a chase down, and all of a sudden, now it's all emotional. You didn't listen to me. The expectation I had is unmet. Now the ego takes over. And I think that's exactly what this scenario is likely to be based on what we have in front of us so far. What do you think, James?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:31

Well, I think that it's a I think that you're exactly right, but I think it's also a manifestation of this exact thing we were talking about earlier. You asked me what at what point do we discuss the constitution in the training academy? We didn't. You know what else we didn't talk about? How to regulate your emotions. Ever. Ever. Have you ever had that class where you didn't have to go seek it out? Has it ever been part of your standard training? So if you think about it, they're supposed to teach the way I see the job of a police officer, and it people, it's sort of a Like a just a generally accepted thing is like, well, cops have a hard job. I really have a problem with that premise because they the cops we see on my channel and your channel, they don't have a hard job. They only have a hard job if they do it the way they're supposed to do it, which is not that often. It's hard to do it the right way. The way I see the job of a police officer doing it the right way is like standing on one of those single wheel things and juggling shit at the same time, right? Because you got to figure out how to use your taser and your gun, and you got to drive the car and you got to turn your microphone on so you don't piss off IA and you got to do all the things, right? You got to do all the things. But now imagine that instead of the platform that you're standing on being the constitution and your statutory and lawful authority, it's all your ego because that's all you learned to prioritize the whole time. And so when you've got to go to the ground, and I mean to the ground, meaning your foundation and your base of what you know is supposed to matter, you're not contemplating your legal acumen. You're not contemplating how do I articulate. The cop's version of articulate is what are the buzzwords they taught me to say so that I don't get my ass reamed and I a it's not, or what are the buzzwords they taught me to put it? Oh, I invited them out of the car. Really? Is that what you call the arm bar that you use to get them out of the car and introduce their face to the pavement? That was an invitation that they were surely free to decline. Like it, there just isn't a lot of critical thinking that goes into this. It's like this is what you say when you're cornered. And that's why they're not very good at lying. They're not usually the ones getting asked the tough questions. Watch a cop sit through an IAE interview where he knows he's screwed up and watch him fold up like a piece of origami because he doesn't know what to say. He doesn't know what to say, especially when somebody has the ability to cause him consequences. And that's the only time we see these guys backpedal. If you watch it, a cop, and that kind of goes back to the point I made earlier. I'm sick to death of a socioeconomic class of people that has a 40% higher incident of domestic violence, that has bad credit, that has terrible job history, that has 20 different apartments in 10 years. I'm sick to death of those people being like, How could you do that? You have guns. Oh my God, I'm a you're a terrible person. Dude, you can't get a car loan because you can't manage your own interpersonal relationships and your life, and you're you're divorced three times, and your current wife doesn't know you have three weed monkeys or pigs, depending on what cult what area of the country you're at, that are waiting on you to get back to the bat phone to text them. You're gonna lecture people about fucking interpersonal relationships? Come on, man. Come on, we gotta get past that. We the the cops are not the torch bearers for virtue. They should be, but they're not. We got to teach them how to act right, then maybe we can get back to a place where that's that's something we can look to them. They are not role models anymore.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:05

The humility of the humility of a servant is is is humility of a servant is totally ignored in your when you when you get this job. Um the oath you should swear should be put your right hand up. I'm a servant, I'm not very special. And but but it seems like the opposite is taught to you. You you're special, here's how to cover your backside.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:24

Yep. Um I want to take I want to take a second to give um appropriate shout outs to everybody that's been donating. You guys uh I can see the donations that go to James's channel, that go to Matt's channel, go to my channel. Um, I think this one either went to James or Matt's channel. Um, it's a super chat donation for two dollars. Uh I was asked to take a FST. Uh I said, hold my beer. It's that's I love it.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:49

I'm gonna just for the for the record, okay. Any of you have been harmed by Matt's censorship. And I'll tell you right now, I'm gonna tell you right now, if you say some sideways shit to me in the comments, I will block you. My channel is like a booth at the mall, bro. It's not that the first amendment is not on my channel. That's my channel, that's where things happen. Matt can block all the people he wants. I don't care. Any donation that comes to me, I'm donating to his his nonprofit. So if you don't want that, if you wouldn't donate, you're gonna donate if you donate to me. So I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:20

Um when you guys donate to our channel, it it goes right back into the channel. So uh I appreciate that. Um, I don't really harp on it a whole lot, but we've never had this many. This is crazy. The only time we ever had more people than this is when we had Kyle Rittenhouse on because a police department was gonna hire him.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:39

So we had to have him on and have that discussion because I will say just as a thank you, I've got one guy, and I'm not gonna say who it is, but he donates to me probably like every month or every other month, he donates like two or three dollars. Y'all don't know what that means to me, because I know if you're donating two or three dollars, like you probably don't have a lot of money, but you think that what I do is special enough that you're willing to do that, and it just sorry, I'm a little bit of a bitch when it comes to stuff like this.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:07

But anyway, I get it because the hardest part for like Matt and I when we do this stuff is like trying to make something about ourselves because in a way we kind of do, but that's not the point. But then you got to be like, hey guys, like we appreciate we see your donations, and now we got to make a point about it because just like you said, not everybody's got that type of money. That's why to me, when you give a share, a like, and a follow, like I understand why the teenage girls always say that crap on TikTok now, because it really does mean a lot when you build up a good community, and then when you got people I got like my Harrison Brock's, my uh Ariel Bohms, um Mr. Bill Fold. Uh I'm sorry if I miss any of the the guys that regularly donate, but holy cow, like they just like you said, they regularly donate and it really helps the channel. Um, because we're able to, I mean, we put a lot of work into what we do with this stuff. Um, Matt really doesn't do shit. Uh I I have to do everything and then just drag. Your wife laughing at you.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:07

For me, it's uh sometimes it's a mile marker. Sometimes you feel a little lost doing this, you know, especially especially in our space, because this is this is different for me than I ever anticipated. And sometimes it's just nice to see a mile marker and realize you're still on the road you thought you were on, you're still doing, you know, and you can't that's a double-edged sword. You can't, you know, I like right now. I have like I have a close to a million people in my regular monthly audience, and that's not my subscribers, usually about 10-15% of the people that uh watch subscribe, but it you so you can't focus on because all of those people feel differently, you can't curate your content around that, but it is still nice to know that like those people, and I've got a core group of like the people that are on my sub staff, like my uh like a lot of those people. Some of those people have my personal phone number, like uh there. I've got a core group of people that literally they they are my ride or die people. They will they will no matter what, because they know my heart and they know that I'm real, and you know, yeah, they're not gonna agree. The one person I agree with all the time is me, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:10

Because I'm into Grateful Sam said you're real, you're real as fuck, James. That's why I stand with you.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:18

Um, we got donate to Matt until he meets me for lunch. I think you did his podcast, too, didn't you, Matt?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:26

Oh, yeah. Everyone get go to Minnesota Black Black Robe Regiment. That's my guy. I love that dude. That T C.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:33

We gotta get him on here. We keep talking about it.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:35

We just need to. I gotta put that, make that get him on your SAP.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:39

Um Luna Lover said, uh, a booth at the mow. I don't know, I don't know what that means.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:46

That's a southern drawl.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:47

Oh, is that what that is?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:50

There's always a few comments. He'll say, he'll say, stop. I think I said something the other day. I was like, let me draw your attention to something. And whoever the Luna Lover of uh person with that handle was like, let me draw your attention, stop. I was like, I don't know what that means, but anyway, yes, it's called Southern Draw Law for a reason.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:10

I gotcha.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:12

Eric, you remember you remember the first time one of the first times I was on here, all my crazy wild followers gets jumped off.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

Oh my god. Bro, they were going off. They they they one jump out the peanut gallery.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:26

I love my followers, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:27

Man, they because they didn't know me, so they were they were trying to get to know me, and I was just another cop to them, so they you know, rightfully so. I didn't earn my place with them, so they lit me up. Matt, why are you wasting your time with this piece of shit?

SPEAKER_06 1:14:41

Oh my gosh, man. Yeah, I had to calm my people down. Like, y'all hold on, hold on, guys. I love y'all, but slow up, slow up.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:49

I was like, Matt, can you vouch for a brother real quick? Come on, man, they're tearing me up.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:54

My audience is full of people that you would think, like if you go back to my original stuff, like some of those people,

Community Support And Creator Responsibility

SPEAKER_04 1:15:00

they have substantially softened. I I used to do a series and I don't do it too much anymore, called Good Cop of the Week. And I don't know if you guys have followed that trajectory or yeah, how much you've watched that. I've seen you do it. Yep. Yeah, so I used to do that every week, and I got stopped um by a kid named Caleb Abney in Georgia uh for doing 92 and then a 70. And I got stopped. And I and I said that the the the way that I hold myself accountable and avoid the worst parts of my personality being prominent is I always uh try to hold myself accountable. And so I go I did good cop of the week for that kid that stopped me because he was perfect on the traffic stop. And three, four months later, that kid got killed in Georgia. And um, so I've stopped doing good cop of the week and I've started like quarterly picking someone in conjunction with Caleb's family, and a lot of people don't know. Well, I'm not even gonna say it, but anyway, I I was at the funeral and I drove to Valdasta, Georgia, and I didn't publicize it because I don't I don't think I'm special or anything like that, but I met his family and I and um and and I started doing the Caleb Abney Excellence and Service Award that I'm gonna do quarterly and hand it out to guys that go really like above and beyond. Caleb was an amazing kid, and I didn't know him. I only had one interaction with him, but he was awesome and our lives crossed for some reason. But the point I was trying to make is that a lot of these hard ass, all or nothing commenters are soft people, you know, in their heart they are. They want to be able to care. You've got to show them you're worth investing in first, and um, and there are people on there that would probably ACAB on a lot of platforms, but are like, you know, we're broken up over Caleb Abney and me and that that kid's that kid's family, he was so touched by the fact that he got good cop of the week that they put it in his obituary.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:58

And I'd never met him outside that.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:59

It was just um the way that sort of serendipity that that that manifested as a result of that chance meeting. Um it was amazing. And there are good cops out there, man. There are, there are really good cops. Um, and then there are a lot of people that exist in this like 85% of them or 80% of them that they don't know what they don't know, and nobody has bothered to teach them, and their leadership is only worried about getting out and doing whatever they can. It's like there's a lot of them that are, I won't call them victims, but they're products of circumstances that maybe they don't recognize or they're too young, or and then there are some of them that are that there are 15% that are just dickheads and make everybody's life hard. And those are the ones we're seeing on YouTube most of the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:44

Yes, a hundred percent. Um, I have my very first uh official um member of our YouTube channel is Mr. Bill Fold. And we've had him on here since, but when he started out, that dude lit me up left and right. Oh, you're full of shit. You're you know, cop propaganda, da-da-da-da, you're cop splaining. I mean, just tore me up. But to your point, one of the things that I always see when I see somebody that is being that vocal other than Steve Ladner. Um when they're being that vocal, uh we have a whole history with Steve Ladner, but um, self-proclaimed heroes. Uh there is a level inside, I believe. I'm just like you. Some they got hurt somewhere. It's my job to figure out where that is. Let them know that I think their experience is valid because I think it is. I think that's the problem cops have. If we don't share the full if we don't see the full picture or we think that the picture is bigger than what they see, then we dismiss it. Yeah, instead of stepping back and go, all right, you've had an experience that uh I've never seen and I can't envision being possible because it hasn't been my experience as a cop. Yeah, but it has. There's people that have had some very shitty encounters with police.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:02

And maybe every one, every encounter they've ever had has been shitty. And maybe it's not our fault at all. Maybe it's completely our fault. Who knows? But is it you think it's an anomaly that that all three of us are experiencing that, and we've also all three been in law enforcement, and maybe the first lens that we see every scenario through is our ego, you know, and so it just doesn't resonate. And by the way, and I don't want to diminish the emotional significance of the way you just sort of like became vulnerable, but it doesn't surprise me at all that if somebody had something happen to them and it was deep that you couldn't reach it.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:33

I'm just trying to say, yeah, and and and that's okay too to understand that you didn't get it.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:40

I just think it's deep enough, what I'm trying to say, Eric. That's what I'm trying to say. You know what?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:45

When my ego took over so I could hear my own voice, I couldn't hear yours anymore.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:50

My ego's getting stomped over here. I got I'm getting personal texts from my auditor buddies to saying Matt, shut up and let James talk.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:57

No, no, no, no, no, they're like, tell Eric to shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:01

I'm terrible at this, and I and I do apologize, man. This ain't about me. I don't I shouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:05

I'm not this is about you, bro.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:08

This is your show, man. I'm just here to try to uh maybe engage in some meaningful dialogue. I really want to reach the people that I haven't reached yet that are on the fence. Maybe because the further that you get from company, you know, I don't know if you guys use the word company, but uh in law enforcement, but the further you get from sort of administration or government employment, or I think the easiest way to say it is giving cops and the government the benefit of the there's never going to be a day in my life again where I learn that somebody's a police officer and I automatically assume that that person is a good person and doing the right thing. Now, the flip side of that is there are people that I used to say, oh well, mainly firemen, but anyway, no. There are people that I used to say, well, that person does this or this person believes in this, and that means they're bad. I've had that same, and I don't do that anymore either. You know, people have a right to earn their way into whatever category. Um, and I really believe that that your opinion about me, and I don't mean you personally, but other people's opinion about us is none of our business. You know, it really isn't. It's their deal, not ours.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:16

I agree. Um, so uh Mr. Billfold, he dropped two dollars in the super chat and said, uh, tonight is your show, James. We all wanted you here.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:26

So thank you guys for uh for bordering on the harassment statute and try to get me in. That's true. Appreciate that. No shame in my game. He was pestering you. Was this guy pestering you? No, not at all. No, I I I got a couple emails, and honestly, I just like I said, I just don't, I just a lot of times, man, I'm just like like humping trying to get done with my stuff for the week. Like it and I I'm not gonna complain. I work maybe 20, 25, 30 hours a week. I don't practice anymore. This is my full-time deal, and I'm not uh, but but a lot of that time is I I call that work when I'm recording, editing, that's what I consider work, but there's a whole lot of like information consumption that I'm doing that I don't even count as work, and that's 40 hours a week more where I'm consuming information, but it's it's not necessarily for fun, like I would just want to be a consumer. Um, so I just really didn't, I don't have I don't have three hours to sit down and watch podcasts most of the time, or I do that a lot, but I just don't.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:25

So is there a moment, is there a moment that you knew that oh man, this is gonna take off and I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna the the with a the the momentum really started for your channel.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:35

I never I will say this I I I make um probably two or three times more than I ever made practice in law. Uh now that is a surprise, but but see, I didn't become a lawyer till I was 40. Um, I'm an excellent bullshitter, so you know you might you might think something about me, but it might just be that I'm real good at talking, you know. Like I like, but I I never the whole reason I started YouTube was um I didn't have a retirement, and I was like, well, I didn't become a lawyer till I'm 40, and I'm not gonna work somewhere till I'm you know 80, so I'm not gonna build like a pension. So I need something that's gonna kick in a thousand bucks a month or something like that, or a couple thousand bucks a month to help me um you know get through like my later years or whatever. And so YouTube was always gonna be that for me. And then it became like I was like, man, people actually care about what I have to say, but there was a moment, um, there's a video that I had, um, it was about uh Las Cruces, New Mexico, and I think it was probably like my seventh or eighth video. And if you go back to it, I it was the wildest title I could ever come up with. And I said, it was like sexually exhausted senior owns virtue signaling cop or something. And the whole purpose of that title was that there was this guy, and I hope Bob's still with us because he he really took my channel to another level, but it was his name was Bob, and he was a he was just slaying these ladies, you know what I mean? Like in this retirement home in Las Cruces, New Mexico. And whenever he'd used them up and he didn't want anything to do with him anymore, he still couldn't let him go. He's kind of a people collector, so he'd go by their door in a retirement home, he'd tap on their shit and just mess with them. So, you know, that they would tell somebody and somebody, and then Bob started to have problems in the in the streets, you know. And so, so they called the police because this lady who he was having some relations with or wouldn't, whatever, they weren't getting along. She told her daughter, and her daughter and her boyfriend, who was a real estate agent, came and confronted Bob at his house. And the real estate agent pulled a gun on him. Then he ran and hid the gun and left or whatever. And so the police came and talked to Bob. And when they but first they talked to the first people, and they were like, Yeah, he says nasty stuff to me. And Bob was talking to the police, and he was like, No, she did this and that. And he's like, and all they want to do is use me for sex. And Bob's like 65, 70 years old. He said, So I told him to go get fucked. And so the this police officer, this Las Cruces police officer, he's like, Man, that's how you want to talk to women, and he's like, You don't tell me what to say, that's free speech. And so my thumbnail was Bob up in Las Cruces PD's face telling him you don't know what it's like to be out here being used for

How Southern Draw Law Took Off

SPEAKER_04 1:25:30

your goods all the time, and they're on me, you know. And so I made this title. Bob's video got 80,000. I was getting about six or seven hundred views for every video, and that video got 80,000 views in the first year. I thought I hit the lottery.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:46

He's out there doing the Lord's work.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:47

I wasn't even monetized because you know, you know what it takes to get monetized. I wasn't even monetized, yeah. And in fact, I didn't even make any money on that because they didn't monetize me until the results of that were over, and then you know, by that time it had hit the arc and come back down, and I didn't make any money on the video, but it but it was amazing. I was literally, I was watching now. I routinely get more than 10,000 views an hour now, but I was remember sitting there looking and it was like 10,000 views an hour, and I was telling my wife, I'm like, we're never gonna have to work again. This is paid, it wasn't nearly as much as a. No, no, baby. That was it. You know, the dollhouse or whatever now right.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:24

Uh one of our guys, uh Tim asked, uh, do you get nervous around acorns?

SPEAKER_05 1:26:30

Not me.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:32

Um, okay. I want to kind of go back to this a little bit because I want to exploit your expertise, sir. So what are the be the biggest legal red flags that jumped out to you?

SPEAKER_04 1:26:44

Where?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:44

What what's the word with uh I'm going back to the Cenatobia issue.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:48

What are the oh uh I think what's really missing outside of the fact that ego gets substituted as the authority, and that's where it all starts. But I think what's really missing is constitutional sequencing and then proportionality. You know, a lot of people don't understand that reasonable articulable suspicion is born out of what you know at the time. And yes, if you get sued in a civil lawsuit, they're gonna go back and they're gonna give you the glasses of the objectively reasonable police officer and they're gonna allow you the benefit of a guy who is perfect at his job at your level. But as far as for justifying your use of force and that kind of thing, we're gonna look at what you knew at the moment. And that's why I have such a big deal with this, because again, the whole purpose that, and it gets overlooked, and I mentioned this in my Toledo video that just came out today. Um, a lot of people look at the gram factors like a checklist, like it's okay, what's the severity of the crime? And they're like, Because this court balances those, and it's like, well, this factor leads this way, and this factor leads this way. Severity of the crime, level of threat, and resistance and flight, those are the gram factors, right? But what gets lost in that That is that all of that is supposed to be this closed universe of what was the legitimate law enforcement objective balanced against the government's interest that we were trying to accomplish. And regardless of what any of those factors say, it still has to exist within this closed universe of what was I allowed to accomplish? And with this, you're talking about shoplifting. And so we're talking about insured private property that, oh, by the way, the Walmart needs as a write-off to disappear. Okay. So if we're really just being honest about it, this is what they call shrinkage in the retail industry, not the same as what you got. I was in the pool. Not the same as what you got going on. But it's shrinkage, it's write-offs. It's these are you know, nobody should die over a shoplifting thing. Now, there's also a sociological argument to be made. Well, we can't also just let people do whatever they want, and then you get Walgreens that you can't get packs of razors out of in California because they got to lock them all up. Like there's extremes, you got to find a happy medium. But when you're talking about this, what on earth were they trying to accomplish that was a legitimate government interest? Because we all know you can't use deadly force to protect private property. So what is or property in general? What is the legitimate government interest? So it only can be the officer safety. And so then that's where it comes down. Well,

Legal Red Flags: Sequencing And Seizure

SPEAKER_04 1:29:30

if you're on this side of the vehicle and we've got a bullet hole going through, and we know there's a baby, like what was on your mind when you drew your gun and started running after this car to put yourself in that position in the first place? Because look, you you have to recognize that you've got some somebody calling from the Walmart saying somebody's stealing something. So that there was some measure of time that had to lapse between that call being made and that officer's response. And so, what made you think you could catch her in the first place? And why did you not think that maybe maybe this is not worth it? And maybe you're just running out to get a tag. Now, if you're running out and you're trying to take a picture of the tag and she backs over you, you know, that's a different legal analysis than to say, what in the hell was on your mind at the time that led you to believe that any of this would be necessary? And that's the real legal red flag for me. Um, and and that was where it started. But again, if you never teach people that what they know at the time that they see some, you even teach what's a seizure. People don't even know. Cops don't even know what a seizure is.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:35

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:35

If you tell somebody to stop and they don't, you've not seized them. No, the law says that you don't seize them until they either submit to your commands or you apply physical force to them. So the first time this lady's legally seized is when she gets a bullet through her arm. Because that's a legal applic, that's a physical application of force. So at the moment that you get shot, what do you what's in your mind? What do you know? There's just there's so much to it, and none of it has to do with the shit that people were talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:05

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:06

And bringing up to do this over a baby, you know, like other that.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:10

Bringing up seizure, it kind of makes me laugh because yes, cops don't understand when they have the seizure, and then even when they have it, they don't understand they have it.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:18

Because when you do a traffic is somehow different than arrest. Detained is the on-ramp to arrest. It's a it's still a seizure, it's all under the umbrella of seizures, and they don't understand that. They don't even know there are umbrellas, they don't know it's raining.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:34

Yeah, somebody told me I had to run a banner underneath uh from your channel. They said you need to run a banner underneath that reminds James of the topic, otherwise, he'll go off on a tangent. That's right. Who said that? Oh, that was let me see. I got it right here. I'm just my I'll tie it back together an hour and a half from now. It's uh and all immunity.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:59

Yeah, at least they're my comments.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:02

That's funny. That's funny. Um sorry, we just we have so many comments when I try to scroll back now. It's like it's super laggy. It doesn't want to do it. We've never had this problem before. I swear.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:16

Uh they have they given a time frame on when info's coming out, have they said anything other than that?

SPEAKER_04 1:32:22

No, they uh that that was another part of the thing that bothered me so much was that they were like, well, you know, if you've looked at all the other investigations we've done in the last four years, we're they they actually made the argument that they need to wait for the autopsy. And that's so insulting, man. Like you had a one-year-old baby that was healthy who who had a projectile introduced to his body that wasn't there before. Do we need an autopsy before we look at the body cam?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:46

Right. That's crazy. We can at least get that's just like this, yeah. You can at least get ahead of it. Um, yeah. But uh let me see here. Uh, I'm just there was a bunch of questions that were sent in because we kept doing obviously posting that we were gonna have you on. We were trying to do some uh pre-cam campaigning. So I got some questions that people sent. Um, somebody said, when an agency or a leader doubles down, how does that usually affect the legal exposure?

SPEAKER_04 1:33:16

Well, yeah, I mean, that's a loaded question because it depends. Because, like in Cenatobia, and I mean, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna reveal a lot, but I've I've had contact with Crump's team. They're they're gonna go back through some of the stuff that's happened, and it's not gonna look, you know, you gotta remember you got three years to file on Brashari Faulkner, the handicapped parking situation. That happened last summer. So all the the little boy that got detained because he peed outside. That there was also a lady who got SA'd by a Cenatobia police officer who sued and won like two million dollars. And there, there's a there's a lot. They and guys, they only I don't know how big, I don't know what they're slotted for. They only have 20 active officers right now. They have no deputy chief, they have no canine unit, they had they only have 20 officers to work, and they said they need a minimum of 25 to complete shifts. So uh there it's a mess there. It's a real mess. And but yeah, what the this is um a Monell claim. So one of the things they'll do is they'll go back and they'll look at how departments handled previous cases and what they did matter. So doubling down can mean a lot of different things. Um, but in some ways, doubling down is legally smart because if you do what like the Gittner Drummond did in Oklahoma when he decided to go in and dismiss those charges against the guy that killed the Vietnamese uh elderly guy by slamming him on the ground, Joseph Gibson. Well, he established himself as a final policymaker, which is one of the elements of a Monel claim, and Devin Jacobs sued his ass personally. Now he was able to wiggle his way out of it and got it defended. But so in some ways, doubling down is smart. And somebody even made the comment in my comment section, and I had to acknowledge that they're like, well, Walmart's doing what you tell them to do, which is to keep their evidence to themselves. You know, so then they they're everybody goes into this, like kind of pulls back into their self-protection. And so sometimes doubling down is the smartest thing they can do, um, because stupid on top of stupid never helps anything. So it just depends. I mean, I don't really have a good answer for that because I don't have full context of what it is. I apologize, but it it can mean a bunch of different things, it can have legal legal significance in a bunch of different facets.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:34

No worries. You know, it's funny the parallels that are happening. Somebody I saw mentioned in the comments, you know, what about the stolen Legos? And now we get into the American Fork agency. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:46

Not into that at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:47

It it doesn't look good. I'll put it, I'll put it to you.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:50

No, it's completely so I want to say if anybody that's actually interested in learning, I I'll be honest with you, I am not caught up on the Legos incident

Monell Risk And Doubling Down

SPEAKER_04 1:36:00

to even know how we got from Oregon to Utah. I don't even know how we got from Oregon to Utah. But I will say that if anybody wants to know about the underlying legal merits of the initial dispute between Bricks and Minifigs and the guy that had the Star Wars collection, go watch Legal Eagles. It's about a one-hour long video where he breaks down all of the procedural and legal posture up to that point. But that's all I got. And the whole reason I haven't covered the Lego scandal is because Grable covered it and he did an excellent job. And John Bryan covered it, and he does he's excellent at everything he does. So, like there is no point for me to cover it by the time I actually and the other thing is you might not know this by having me on live and just letting me do my thing, but I generally do not just spray a bunch of shit if I don't know anything about it. I'm not comfortable with just the the I think that getting it right is the most important thing, not being right, but getting it right. And I can't get it right if I don't have the time to invest in the facts, and I'm not willing to just get out and start talking about something that I don't fully understand and I don't have time to understand it. And it's the same as the Karen Reed thing. There are parts of that that I understand that I think are terrible and that she completely got hemmed up, but I don't know enough about it to adequately and competently covered it. So I just never did. And if I ever got to a place where I did understand it, it would be so saturated and people would be past it, it'd be a waste of 10, 20, 30 hours of my life for the purpose of making content. So I don't I don't know much about that situation.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:37

The the part that would have interested me on your perspective is the cops themselves, the clear slant they had towards the um the company, not the company, but like the owner of the store that was in Utah, they were giving him information and telling him like this is what we're doing. And he's like, Well, why don't you try to charge him for this? And I remember that. Yeah, so that was the part that I really had a problem with where I'm like, you you can't you're you're supposed to be impartial, non-bite. Like, this is you're not gonna give this information.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:10

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:11

I know, I know, I know, but in the fantasy world, this is what we're supposed to be. Um so uh that that's what really drew my attention.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:22

That that pulled over Aaron Booker. If you go to the lackluster's channel and watch that, did you watch that traffic stop with Aaron Booker? Yes, this American Fork police have pulled this motherfucker over an hour outside of his jurisdiction over a thing he didn't do because Aaron dared, and you know, we know cops. You're you're much more likely to get pulled over by a cop that you pass if they have the legal authority to do it, than you are to have actually committed a traffic infraction. And so there's a guy literally in the hover lane that he's not supposed to hover around lane that he's not supposed to be in, parallel to this dipshit police officer. And Booker goes between them and dares to pass him, and he pulls him over, and the guy's an hour outside of his jurisdiction, and all of that was fine until Lack put it on his channel, and then then they called and they did an apology. The chief of police, that same dude that got on and did the you know thing with the reckless men, this is the same police department. They got way more problems. We're just learning about them, right? But again, I still don't know what the nexus is between Oregon and Utah, so I have no idea. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:34

But you bring up a good point that I'm getting tired of with police departments, is not owning up to your shit until you get called out at a level of like lackluster or audit the audit or some of these other great channels that just break down stuff like that. One of the latest ones that we really had a problem with on here, I know Matt did too, is um when they're releasing that uh older, I think she actually qualified as an elderly lady out of a jail. And right when they go to let her go, they just toss her ass out in San Diego County. Yeah, fuck her up. And and I'm like, that happened like by the time that video got out, and that was lucky because some other person did a Freedom of Information Act and just happened to find it.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:14

Yep, you know that one John uh civil rights lawyer did that on his channel. Do you remember the overdose cop?

SPEAKER_02 1:40:20

Y'all remember that seeing that in the bathroom where he's in the bathroom? Yeah, he like he had been busted for using dope.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:28

Yeah, he's code black now.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:31

Really?

SPEAKER_04 1:40:32

Oh, yeah, he shot out with the police, had a son in the code.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:34

Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah. I did see that update. Yes, yeah, he did.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:38

He's dead. That's what I mean. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember CRT.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:43

He's dead right there.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:44

Code black is medical. That's what they say in the in the hospitals. So if they're code red, then they're they're really fucked up.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:50

But if they oh we said code black if we got on scene they were deceased party, but um, but yeah, so yeah, so but yeah, who knew that that could be a problem, right? And though the bathroom overdose on fentanyl. I covered the guy in North Carolina that stole the $900 from the guy. That's one of the most fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:08

Oh, in the door, he like tried to hide it down in the door. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:11

You can seem like his eyes were totally betraying him. These guys are

American Fork And Policing Without Shame

SPEAKER_04 1:41:15

not good at being criminals, they're not they're only good at being criminals because they never get prosecuted for the crimes they commit. Again, right, this is all about if you really think about it and distill this down to one single problem. It is a absolute absence of consequences from every single level, all the way up. And the guys that are in leadership are the guys that were cracking heads in the 90s, right? They don't know, right? And they're the ones that are that are out here, you know. We investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:47

Yeah, the guys running departments.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:49

Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead, Matt. I was gonna say those are the those are the guys running departments now.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:53

Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:54

And then how long was it they were on a call, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:57

Yep. So that that money, that money call was where they stole the money. Like, one, I want to give the suspect in that case credit for his freaking stone our ears. He's like, I heard him messing with my band. Yeah, it's like holy shit.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:13

You heard that? I was gonna say that woman of his probably don't let him have the money, you know? Right. Look, I trusted you with it for five minutes and you got it stolen by the police. Right. Imagine you're trying to tell that story. I swear the cop took my money. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:31

And let me be clear on that motherfucker. He deserves to be in prison. And I believe that cops that get convicted of crimes deserve double the punishment because if we're going to live by the higher standards that we claim we want to be of, then you get double the punishment when you get caught violating that oath.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:48

I I agree. I think that um, and I don't know if you've noticed, and a lot of well, we've talked about this a little bit between the two of us, but we're seeing, and I remember probably in January, you can probably find a video of mine in January or February where I say it feels like this year is going to be different. 2026 is gonna be different. I'm seeing police officers being charged left and right. There's more criminal cop content than I have time to even inform myself about. And a lot of it is using flock cameras for personal use, using the DMV databases to find out that their ex-wife's baby daddy is blah, blah, blah, right? A lot of it's that. But again, that all comes back to leading people to believe that this job is all about what it can do for you instead of a service job that's the way they're supposed to be in service to somebody else. But that I remember looking around at the beginning of this year and thinking, this is different. And dude, I'm we're halfway through the year. What I really believe now is that we are seeing because the legal system is so slow to change, we're seeing the manifestation of the body cam implementation from 2020 and 2021. That five-year mark is right here, and so we are going to start seeing all of these things that we never saw before. A perfect example, uh, Catawba County, North Carolina, Newton, North Carolina. There's a guy named Lieutenant, was a lieutenant, Carlos Uribe. He gets into a chase with a motorcycle, and the kid's name was Chant Camden Childers. He was 21 years old. And Eurebe chases him into this cul-de-sac where he didn't have any other exit, hits him with the patrol vehicle, and walks up to him, kicks him in the chest, and says, You don't go for someone's gun, and fires a round into his chest. He is surrendering with his hands up, shoots and kills him. North Carolina still this happened a year ago. He they charged him with second-degree murder. North Carolina still has refused to release the body cam because body cams are not public records in North Carolina. Wow. And now think about this. He's a police officer who felt so comfortable. There is no evidence. They've got the body cam. The district attorney's come out and said there's no evidence that he had access to a gun or was ever in a position to try to go for somebody's gun. But he already implanted that as the thing to say in his mind because he thought that was the thing that was going to help him get away with it and shot and killed this kid. And he is charged with second-degree murder. He abruptly pled guilty to second-degree murder the other day, and they did not even take him into custody. He's still out on bond. They he pled guilty to second degree murder, and he's on bond, and they didn't set his sentencing until September. Wow. That's insane. And it wasn't like we decided we're gonna do this, whatever. He abruptly pled guilty with no notice to second-degree murder straight up, and he's out of jail, out of custody.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:21

What do you want to bet? They can't find him.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:25

That's crazy. Holy shit. Which which goes into, you know, we kind of touched on leadership, and a lot of these guys that are in leadership have never worn a body camera in their career. Right. And now they're expected to be over a bunch of officers. Right. Um, so on top

Body Cams, Slow Justice, And Consequences

SPEAKER_02 1:46:45

of that, now we're talking about agencies. There's still agencies out there, not many of them, but there's still agencies out there that don't even have body cameras. How? Um, there's other agents, the shit. There's one in Florida that the the sheriff brags about it. That's Grady Judd.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:01

Grady Judd, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:03

That's so asin eyeing to me. I'm like, what is your deal, dude? Like, that is the dumbest thing ever.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:09

He also gets on there and and root he loves to put people's picture before they've been convicted. I don't like the way Grady Judd does things, but I like the fact that he's good at what he does. So it's another one of those things like where I just respect the craft, but I don't like the fact that he does, I don't like the way he does things. He certainly doesn't care anything about transparency or accountability or anything like that. He pretends, but he has a real problem of what I think is virtuous, and everything below that is I'll put you on here and just let the court of public opinion convict you before you'll ever, you know. He's gonna lose a couple criminal cases because of that because they won't be able to find a fair jury, but he don't care because he's got a million subscribers or followers now, he's making money, so it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:53

But that's what I was going to say. Is he that's what I was gonna ask you, James. He's he's compromising cases by doing that.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:01

Well, I think that he's that that there's an argument to be made, and I shouldn't I should retract because I do not want to suggest that he is making money. He might not be. Um, and I don't want to suggest something improper because I don't know, but I know that a million followers can be monetized, whether he's monetizing it, I don't know. But I do think that there's a real danger to compromising the integrity of the jury pool by making such a theatrical, you know, display of every single time you arrest somebody. And he does it when he arrests cops too, so it's not so I have to say call balls and strikes there, but no, I don't really like I don't like the style, I don't like the idea. Innocent until proven guilty means nothing to people, it really doesn't. It's just a thing that we say that makes us feel fuzzy inside, it's not reality.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:55

No, I agree, I agree a hundred percent. Um, just for those that follow us over on Instagram, I I do occasionally see that you're chatting up there. If you could make your way over to our YouTube channel, that's where we try to funnel everybody. I just put us on Instagram and TikTok for awareness so you guys know we do a live. And if you do want to be a part of the conversation, we welcome you to come over to our YouTube channel. So um, yeah, with that said, uh, James, I got I got some more questions for you over here. A lot of them let's see here. Uh what would you tell a chief, sheriff, city attorney, or mayor watching this case unfold going back to San Antonio? Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:40

If I thought I had an audience, well, I shouldn't say that. I do have um there's an alderman there named Chris McConnell who's awesome, who really cares about that community. And what I have told him is that he needs to look at the city of Melvendale, Michigan. And What condoning the policing style of Matthew Furman, who is happily getting his asshole reamed in prison right now in gin pop in Wayne County, Michigan. Um, I uh what he's done to that community because they they had a bunch of lawsuits because of him. He's lost, they increased their insurance premium 40%, like one year. And then the next year, when they settled a million dollar lawsuit, they canceled them. So now they're self-insured. So it's gonna be one or two more lawsuits for doing things the wrong way, and they're gonna be bankrupt. And they're because you know, a lot of people don't understand that. Well, a lot actually, a lot of people do, but because they're in our in my audience, a lot of people understand them that cities are just corporations, but that's what they are. And they run out of money, they run out of money. I mean, literally, that's what it means. Incorporated means that you have like, you know, it's it's a business, and so um they're gonna run out of money, and just like your business or my business, if you can't get insurance and you don't have the money to cover the lawsuits or the liability, then you're out, you know. You start spending more than you're taking in, and it is what it is, and people move out of your city. Who wants to live in Cenatobia? You don't even have police officers that you can't even you're you gotta, what is it, 20 out of 25 is four fifths. It's 80% of your police department is full, and you can't even hire a deputy chief. Nobody even wants to be in leadership in that place. And so uh what I've said is that um it really has to start at the top, and it has to start with somebody who actually cares about the constitution. You know, we started off this whole conversation talking about um the contrast between how the military looks at the constitution and how cops look at the constitution, which is really fascinating if you think about it, because there's no part of a police officer's job that does anything to advance rights or constitutional principles, it's the outer framework that defines what they're allowed to do, but their actual job is to interrupt liberty. That's what you do for a living. You interrupt liberty and you take it from people. Whereas the military, now I'll get some people that are, you know, hate America and I don't care what those people think, but those people are gonna be like, oh, the military industrial compliment, but I don't that I don't give a shit what you think about that. What I'm trying to say is the military, to the extent that you're a patriotic person, you believe that's what they do, they're fighting for our freedoms and they are very conscientious about taxpayers' liability. And I didn't know that, so you just shared it with me. But cops take them away and they're supposed to operate within these boundaries, and they just don't care. And the difference is consequences. That's it. Consequences of ego.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:39

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I think that that's something that's missing in law enforcement. I think it would benefit us to try to induct that part of. I mean, let's face it, police, we are paramilitary, no matter what anybody wants to say, we are. And if we're going to take some paramilitary principles, that's one I would love to take. It's not hard, and it starts in boot camp. And one of the things that police world doesn't do either is it doesn't set the person up at the very bottom for the next level. They have to do all that on their own, which is complete opposite prospect in the military. Day one, my job is learning my job, but also learning the guy's job ahead of me. And they're gonna let me know every time I fuck up trying to learn that other guy's job too. And we don't do that in in law enforcement. It's a it's a you know, people people talk about the thin blue line stuff, and I've I've told people before, it goes, the thin blue line to me doesn't mean the same thing that everybody else tries to chant. Thin blue line means to me is that I've got people in this life, and Matt's one of them. I guarantee, if I fall on duty, Matt's gonna make sure that my family's taken care of. He's gonna make sure that my daughter's somebody is there to walk her across the aisle, whatever it is. And Matt lives across the nation. That is a type of brotherhood that we have that was created, and it's the same thing in the military. I've got people in the military, that's what that means to me. It's not on the line between evil and good. Like that, I don't like that shit. I don't like the Punisher, you know, yeah, landmark with the thin blue line through.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:16

Like, I uh for reference, that's not what my audience thinks. And I and I think there's a stronger argument to be made that my audience is more correct about what the thin blue line means. I believe that the thin blue line has become a gang symbol. And I'm not saying that to be inflammatory. I if you took bloods, crips, Latin Kings, People Nation, Folk Nation, thin blue line, and you took away the titles and you just listed all their behaviors, I'd like for you to show me which one's the police officers and which one aren't.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:47

That's a good point. That's a good point. I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive, but I I see what you're saying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:53

No, and I I'm just saying that I've I think that you're a facet, you're a um a subsect of police officers who view the thin blue line from behind it that way. And I used to. I mean, shit. When I went to law school, I had a I I showed up my first day in my externship with a thin blue line pin at a at a criminal defense firm. The thin blue line TI-TAC. And my guy that was my supervisor was like, What are you doing? And he was like, We're a criminal defense firm, dude. Read the room.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:28

I was not young, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:29

I was not young, I was in my late 30s. Um, but uh you the other thing you said about paramilitary, if you think about it though, the only thing that that police departments actually borrow from the military is force principles with no deference to the rules, right? Because if you think about the military and how careful they are with the rules of engagement, those are commingled, tethered together. They're married to one another as as to how you are how it's the playbook for how you use the force principles. The only thing police borrow from that is a warrior mentality for people who are not supposed to be at war. So why do you think that the American cops think they're at war with the population? And then the other thing that they borrow is like the rank structure. But again, that's just a hierarchy of authority. It's not really, it's not really for any of the same reasons um that that the military does it. And I won't sit here and pretend to be an expert on that because I've never been in the military, but I can tell you that that that's a facade. The paramilitary essence of policing is a facade that abandons all of the things that make that work for the military, like consequence and rules, rules of engagement.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:45

You got anything to add on that, Mr. Matt?

SPEAKER_06 1:56:48

I just I while I love and respect

Thin Blue Line Meaning And Backlash

SPEAKER_06 1:56:50

your view on the thin blue line. You know, I love your brother. I know. Um, I'm I'm I'm with James on that. I'm I'm that's why I call my my my channel Lion Stepper. I I don't want to be be uh I don't associate myself with with uh blue line or any type of line. I I I see it the people that I talk to and the people that I'm close with that I love that are fan friends and family of mine, they feel big time threatened by a blue line flag, and uh they do see it as gay. Yes, and and and that's I gotta say I agree with James.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:19

Yeah, no, I and I I hope I'm not coming off that my way is the only way. I'm just telling you when I don't hear that that's a sentiment I get from it. I don't, but I understand that point of view.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:29

And I Eric you have a right to be wrong. I mean that's fair.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:33

That is fair. I do have a right to be wrong.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:34

No, I just think if you look at its behaviors and you just took away the titles, I just think you'd have a hard time separating them from what we know about gang activity.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:43

Yeah, you know, fair enough. Yeah, definitely. Yep, definitely. Yep. Um, sorry, I'm looking at uh some of the questions there.

SPEAKER_06 1:57:51

I had a question for James real quick while we while while it's still fresh on my mind. How in the how in the world does where does the blame fall at with uh someone like that Furman dude that you mentioned earlier operating in this profession for 10 seconds? Like I like it's so ludicrous. It's like watching a cartoon character, it doesn't even seem real, how ridiculous his behavior was. How does that happen?

SPEAKER_04 1:58:16

Incentive structure. If you look at the history there, and um there's a chief, I can't remember his name that was pretty uh verbal and outspoken about it. Hayesai, H A Y S I, Chad Haysai, um lost his job trying to get rid of Furman because Furman had an incestuous relationship with tow companies there, and he was generating that Melvendale had some sort of arrangement where they got a commission from all the cars that got towed. And so he was driving in hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of revenue every year, and so he was super valuable to them until his liabilities outweighed his. Wow. So that's a lot dirtier than it even looks. But it but again, how the the real question that you're that you're sort of poking at the heart at is how do we get to a place where that is our incentive structure? The only way to do it is to abandon the mission of what we're supposed to be doing, which is to serve the public, right? So yeah, that's it's specifically with him, that's what happened.

SPEAKER_06 1:59:19

Okay, I just I look at his the people around. I got if anyone ever even acted remotely close to that, you watch by the camera, me, me and him fighting and on the scene, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:31

Um, sorry, Craig just dropped uh dang, this this chat is just blowing up. It's hard for me to even keep everything in line. Craig just dropped uh five memberships in the chat. Appreciate you, Craig. Appreciate that a lot. Um one of the guys are calling me out. They're wanting me to tell you that I'm a bit of an optimist, so that's why I am it it's just kind of the way I am.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:55

I've got the disease of optimism. I've said it. If you go back to my old catalog, you'll hear me saying that a bunch of things. I still want to see the good in people. I just refuse to just and I don't I I you know I think it's really a product of just getting older, man. Like I'm not even the same person I was five years ago. And you made a comment earlier about how you've gotten to be a better cop by virtue of doing this. Guys, I never read this case Pennsylvania versus men until I started this channel, and I was a prosecutor. But why? Let's talk about why. The reason is because my consequences never pushed me to where I had to understand that case because in the criminal justice system, which is the biggest reason I don't practice anymore, I cannot make the kind of difference one client at a time that I can make on my YouTube channel. So if I invest myself 100%, I can literally I've got over 40 million views, and I'm a small fry in the YouTube space. I'm a nobody

Incentives That Reward Misconduct

SPEAKER_04 2:00:50

on YouTube. What I've got over 40 million lives that I've been able to touch as a result of just doing this. And I never had any reason. I never had it to argue Pennsylvania versus Mims. As a cop, I was never taught Pennsylvania versus Mims. We we didn't even, we didn't even think we needed an excuse for telling people to get out of the car. We just told them. I mean, my whole epiphany on uh on law school was realizing that every almost every person I ever got out with, I was like, hey man, come over here, put your hands on this car, let me patch it down for weapons. And they did it. So part of that is 99.9% compliance, like you were talking about earlier. They did it. And maybe I delivered it in a way that made it seem like it was an option and I was a nice guy and they didn't have to feel threatened or whatever, but still to sit there in law school and realize that and I had less than 10 uses of force reports in a 10-year law enforcement career. I mean, and we had to do a use report for drawing our gun and raising it above a low ready. So it I wasn't the type of guy that was always, you know, busting people up and stuff. Like I kept a pack of cigarettes and a burner phone for people to call their mama and have a cigarette on the way to jail. Like I try to be good to people, but I still violated a bunch of people's rights. And it was like I was sitting in law school thinking, oh my God, how many people don't want to violate people's rights and have no idea they're doing it? And that's why I know not all cops are bad, or that 85% of cops are not like the ones we see on YouTube. I know that's not true because it wasn't true about me. And I'm not the same person that's that was five years ago. And I think part of the way that we see things has a lot to do with what happens to a person, to your point about sub-25-year-olds being cops. What happens to a person between 25 and 30 and 30 and 35 and 35 and 40, 40, and 45? And every five years, you're just a you just shed that old bullshit and you're a whole new person, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:42

Yeah. And and you kind of get into the point um that I like talking about on here is with uh I'm trying to figure out how I want to phrase this. When you get into this job and you don't know what you don't know, but the public has expectations of what they want police to know and what they think they should know. And I think a lot of times the public's expectations is they want a cop that has a lawyer-based knowledge of the law. And I don't know that that's necessarily reasonable because we don't get a lawyer's version of training. So where does that line get drawn? Because just like you're talking about, James, like we don't get a whole lot of constitutional training. Whose fault is that? Is that the officer's fault when he gets out on the street? Not really. Well, if you ever sit down and talk to a lawyer, if I sit there and try to ask him a law verbatim, do they know it? No. Does a judge who's supposed to be like the top dog of all lawyers? No. So let's go into expectations the public can have that I find unreasonable, which is that cops need to now I'm all for cops need to know the constitution and our amendments and shit like that. That's easy. I don't think that's too much to ask. Um, learning how to apply them in real-world situations is another thing, and knowing how they apply. Um but that expectation that cops need to know the laws like a lawyer, and I don't even think they understand that lawyers don't even know laws like you think a lawyer knows the laws. They've got the benefit of this person broke this law, now they can go investigate it, uh, research it, and then talk about it, and then do their interpretation. But because of a law getting broken, they're like, Well, how does a cop not understand that? Look, there's guys like James and another guy like James across the side of the courtroom that are both going to argue their point against each other on that same law. And both of them, if they just stood alone, would probably make a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:56

So yeah, yeah, I think that well, first let's just be honest, there's nobody like me. No, I'm showing no no. What I was gonna say is um it's funny you say that because if if I asked you right now if you know what the outer limits of your city is, like do you know where your jurisdiction ends? You know, if you drive in one direction, do you know that you're okay now? I don't have jurisdiction here, I don't have the authority to police over here.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:23

I do because it says you're now entering this city.

SPEAKER_04 2:05:26

Well, there you go. But cops don't know that about what their constitutional box is, right? They don't know that they're outside of that. That I think where people get upset with police officers is that police officers will routinely try to enforce laws that they don't themselves understand. And so that's where it's like, well, just like the, you know, and what lackluster and long island are doing with legal shield or attorney shield, I mean, is phenomenal because it puts the police in a position where they they're talking to a lawyer and it's got flaws and it's not perfect. But you've I've literally watched them have a police officer in real time acknowledge and correct his understanding of a statute by having a conversation with a lawyer. But in order to really get a grasp on this, you have to take like six steps back and you have to ask the question Did anybody tell cops that they don't know? Because I don't know if you've met one lately, but you can't convince them that they don't know because all they see is I've got an argument to make with this person that is challenging me, and I've got to, and so that's what the whole cops planning is. I've got to walk all the way around this and do this mental gymnastics, which really unveil unveils to you that I really don't understand this and explain to you why I'm right and you're wrong because the virtue attaches to being right, not getting it right. So that's that's one thing. The other thing is, and I didn't know this case until um there was a there's a person in my um audience, and the handle is Sin City Giggles, and they yeah. Um no, no, wait, sorry. That that person, it might be laughing daffodils, but anyway, it was one of those two. I think it was laughing daffodils out.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:13

I see a trend.

SPEAKER_04 2:07:14

Told me about a case called Jordan versus New London. Are you familiar with that case? I'm not okay. Jordan versus New London is a case that solidified a police department's right to hire dumber people as police officers.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:29

Oh, yeah, the IQ test thing, right?

SPEAKER_04 2:07:31

Well, it it what it wasn't, it was uh, I think it was the M MPI or whatever the psychological test, but it was something to do, yes. The guy was smarter, and why? Why? Because, well, and I shouldn't say like I don't mean like people like me, but smart people don't just blindly follow orders, and you want police officers to blindly follow orders, but that comes with its own set of consequences, which is that they might not possess the aptitude to be able to interpret statutory parameters or whatever. Yeah, so you're starting off fighting for the right to hire people too dumb to understand the laws, and then you're telling them that they know better than everybody else, and you're in inflaming all aspects of every corner of their narcissistic personality disorder, and you're creating monsters that are failing their interpersonal relationships and arguing with the people they serve on the street. So I don't I think this is one of those things that's like a chain of consequences, and the the cop not fully understanding or knowing the laws they're trying to enforce is like the the straw that broke the camel's back, but it's not the first thing in this causal chain that got people to be fed up, you know, they're fed up by all of this stuff, and nobody nobody taking ownership of it and prioritizing personal responsibility, and that's my take on it.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:55

I like it. Matt, you got anything to add on that? Yes, uh they're hiring dummies, huh?

SPEAKER_04 2:09:03

There are a lot of smart people that would be police officers that probably would like to serve in the capacity of a police officer, but that's just not who they're looking for.

SPEAKER_06 2:09:14

That's funny. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. I gotta look deeper into that one.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:18

What was that case again? New London. New London. It's a it's a corruptic case.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:23

No, I think made famous by Long Island Audit.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:27

I'm gonna look it up real quick. I like it.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:29

I've got it pulled up when you started talking about it. I I typed it up here. It's uh city of England, Connecticut wanted to redevelop an economically struggling area near a new Pfizer facility. To do that, the city used the eminent domain to take homes from private owners.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:47

Uh that's not the same one.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:49

That is not it.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:50

It's a Wonderlick personnel test, an IQ of 125. 125 was too high, bro.

SPEAKER_02 2:09:55

Okay, so it was it was an IQ test. Yeah, I knew it had something to do with that.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:00

Jordan versus New London, New London, Connecticut. Yeah, where they got Brian Fahy, Coptua. Yeah. So there you go.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:08

Coptua. Oh my I never heard that one. Oh, you never heard of Cop Tua? I didn't hear that name, that nickname. I know who Faye is, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:16

Maybe if you uh maybe if maybe if you weren't auto-erotic fixating yourself with a thin blue line, you'd know what the fuck's going on.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:26

Fuck you, southern drunk. Get him, James.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:28

Get him.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:29

This fucking guy. Who invited him on our show?

SPEAKER_06 2:10:32

Jesus Christ. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:36

Have you talked to Sean lately?

SPEAKER_02 2:10:37

I've talked.

SPEAKER_04 2:10:38

I talked to him every once in a while. Yeah, he has a he not he and I texted a couple weeks ago.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:42

Yeah, I texted a couple weeks ago.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:44

I love that dude. I love that dude. I love him a lot.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:48

Yep. Uh James Chat thinks I'm a bootlicker, goofballs. Mr. Billfold. Yeah, it's definitely that was the dude that lit us up when when when I when he first came over to our channel from Matt's channel, I think.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:01

People think I'm people used to call me a bootlicker. Um I used to be a bootlicker. You know, I just told you I had a thin blue pen that I showed up. You know, I just didn't know, man. I didn't realize that it because like you, Eric, the my only association or point of reference with people in the thin blue line were people that I cared about personally.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:22

I didn't have any idea that I thought they were like me. And and and the ones that I care about are, and the ones that you care about are, and the same for you, Matt. They're you know, a lot of people don't know. I sued my local city on behalf of a police officer recently, and I don't want to practice law, but he's a good cop. He's the kind of cop that literally keeps a log of his field sobriety test, and he makes people prove that they are drunk, and he releases 55% of people who he gives field sobriety tests to and keeps a log. And they screwed him without process, so I sued him because fuck him. But you know the thing is, I you don't have to have a certain title to be virtuous. Just like uh the A Few Good Men, the line, one of my my famous lines or my favorite movies ever, A Few Good Men, one the movie that made me want to be a lawyer. You don't have to have a patch on your arm to have honor. You just don't. So, you know, and I again I I'm not taking any money for that case. I'm not none of that. And I'm not publicizing it. I don't like my platform as a hammer and I don't wield it improperly. And I'm I'm not trying to publicize that or any of that. I'm just saying, you know, just because you're a police officer doesn't make you bad and it doesn't make you good, everybody exists on their own merits. And that's how I feel about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:42

I like that. I like that. Okay. I think we're winding down. I got one last really good question. And then I'm gonna kind of open it up to the audience if they've got some questions. And Matt, obviously, uh, he's your biggest fan. So uh I'm gonna let I'm gonna let Mr. Perfect Teeth ask you some questions. But uh all right. What should agencies learn from creators, attorneys, and critics who are pointing out problems?

SPEAKER_04 2:13:10

I think the most uh significant thing that agencies do or do not do is to pretend as if there's no merit to criticism. I see so many times people just how many times have you seen a YouTube channel where somebody's like, where'd you get your lawyer degree? You know, as a police lawyer, you want oh, and then the worst of you sovereign citizen. No, I I just I just know that the that the law says that you can pull forward of the fucking stop bar if it's a multiple intersection and you need to see around the corner. I'm not an idiot, I can read, you know, like there are a whole lot more people on the street. There are a lot of people out there that are smarter than the cops they're being policed by. And there are also a lot of cops out there that are smarter than the people leading them, right? It's hard to work for somebody dumber than you. So I think that the biggest problem that exists in law enforcement is ego and lack of consequences, and I think that goes from top to bottom. And it how if you want to see how your patrol people are gonna act, then you watch how the chief handles criticism, you watch how the chief deals with conflict because they are replicating their leadership style, and too many people were focused on supervision versus leadership because supervision is like these are the boxes I have to check. There's not a substantive approach to leadership, those are supposed to mean the same thing and they don't, you know. So I think that's a big problem.

SPEAKER_02 2:14:48

I like it. I like it. Matt, you got anything to add, sir?

SPEAKER_06 2:14:51

No, I just I I love the philosophies and the way he words everything, man. It's it's just I wish I was half as smart as you, brother.

SPEAKER_04 2:14:58

I wish my wife would I wish my wife would get in line with this. How long were you a cop for, James? About nine, nine and a half years here and there. And I yeah, I I'll finish law school or finished my under. It took me 10 years to finish my undergraduate degree. So um I was trying to do that. Towards the end of my career, I was working part-time and I would go to school and um I actually had two jobs. I was a part-time police officer, and then I also worked um at a phone company, and I would uh I would work from noon to eight at the phone company and then work from 8:30 or 9 till about three or four in the morning, and then I would sleep in the basement of the police department and then get up and go to school uh in my last semester of of uh undergraduate school. Dude, I I I come from nothing. I come from absolutely nothing. I'm the only person in my family who's ever had a college degree. Um, so yeah, it's uh it's been a journey. I that's another reason why I have a hard time really like really like hammering these guys that are 22, 23, because they shouldn't even be police officers that young. Their brains aren't developed the way they need to be. They're certainly not mature. I wouldn't want to be defined with by what I did at even 35. But you know, you there's a there's a uh diminishing returns problem that you have there because you're trying to draw people into a career and you can't start it at 35, you know. So anyway, there's a there's a problem there that I don't know how to solve that, you know. Uh I think insurance companies are ultimately gonna be the thing that pushes our uh police reform because they're gonna be shaping how they cover liability and stuff like that. And a lot of that's gonna change as a result. But anyway, being a cop, Matt, was both the best and the worst thing that ever happened to me. Um because I should have never been a cop, I really shouldn't have. My personality is not um conducive to being in a supervisor subordinate relationship. I don't work well with other people, especially if I think they're idiots. Um I also had a period of time where I was an idiot, and that goes up to all the way up right before I walked in the door of this office. So it's like, you know, uh, but my per my interpersonal relationships had to go through a serious recovery because, you know, nobody told me I didn't know everything to, and you know, like there's so it's like I couldn't do what I do if I hadn't been a cop, but it also made my life harder in so many different ways because of the bad parts of the personality of a police officer that had control of me for so long. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:25

Um Stimson said, uh, Eric in a rebuke, your people expect cops to have lawyer-level knowledge of the law. Cops expect citizens to know it. Ignorance isn't an excuse for us, no blue lines. I that's a fair argument.

SPEAKER_04 2:17:40

Um, he's always in my comments, and he was so and something you guys will know with me.

SPEAKER_02 2:17:47

I don't shy away. Like if you guys have a hard question for me or you want to call me out on some bullshit that I may have said, I'm gonna share it and I'm gonna show it and I'm going to address it just like I did earlier with Matt's thing where somebody's trying to accuse him of censoring his YouTube. Listen, Matt is a dummy. I I don't know if you guys know this. He is a technology uh just he's still on an Atari, y'all. Like he is not good with it. I have to walk him through everything. I've had to tell him all week that we got this going. Like, he's about to retire, y'all.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:21

Okay, but is there anywhere that Pac-Man's ass is gonna hide that he can't get to him? Nope. Fair. He knows all the alleys around Pac-Man.

SPEAKER_02 2:18:29

Yeah. But um, Stimson, to your point, I think the point that I'm getting to is cops shouldn't be taking you to jail and not knowing what charge they're gonna have. They got to know that they've got the elements of the offense, is is kind of the point that I'm getting to. And just like a lawyer, a cop cops feel like they have to rush everything. I don't know what that, I don't know if that's a cultural thing. We're going call to call. I I work at a really major city, we have a million calls plus a year. So that is a factor where I'm at. But there's no rush on your call. Take the time to see that you got the elements of an offense that you think you may have. You can still, if you if you suspect, if you have RAS and you think there's a crime there, that's where cops need to get to. They need to be kind of the um reader's digest version of knowing the law. They gotta understand they've got some elements. Okay, cool. I got enough for RAS. I can, I can now I can detain and start investigating and see if I got all the elements of a law that's been broken. I don't expect cops to have that memorized. That's the point I was trying to make. I hope that's clear.

SPEAKER_04 2:19:32

Well, I agree. I do think that um, you know, Eric, I'm not sure that a lot of cops understand that there are elements to crimes. And I and I'm not saying that to be disrespectful. I I don't think that cops and I don't think that cops understand, and I'll just tell you this law school's three years long. The last year of law school, the last semester of law school, I made the dean's list. It's the only semester I made the dean's list, so I'm not saying I'm hot shit, but I didn't even buy the books. I didn't even buy the books, and I made the dean's list. You had to get a 3.25 or above to make the dean's list. I, you know, my law school GPA was was 2.89. I'm nothing special, but the people that are like 4.0 lawyers or whatever, those people are the people that are doing something crazy, super brain, transaction-based. The guys that are in the trenches are your like C C plus student lawyers. Um, and I'm not saying that because I'm a C plus student lawyer, I'm just saying, but what I'm saying is that like the whole first year of law school is teaching you how to think like a lawyer. And the whole last year, the reason I said that was to illustrate that it literally doesn't matter. And so you don't get criminal procedure in law school in most schools until your uh first semester of your second year or your second semester of your second year. And the whole first year is dedicated to teaching you how to question everything. And when you have an entire police force who are chosen for their personality and and their lack of a tendency to question everything, it's sort of the opposite of how you ever get to a place where people can even think like a lawyer to have a lawyer's level of knowledge. But the other

Trespass Myths And False 911 Calls

SPEAKER_04 2:21:20

thing is, I don't know that most cops understand that there are several elements. I don't, I think, like burglary, for instance, the traditional common law elements of burglary are enter the property of another at night with the intent to commit a felony inside. There are five elements to that crime, okay? I I don't think cops understand that that's not just saying, hmm, he broke into that house, he's guilty of burglary. Hmm. What if he's homeless and his intent was not to commit a felony? But when you question him, he says, Yeah, man, I was just really cold and I was in there laying on their couch. Has that person committed burglary? No, they have not. Because criminal mischief intent, right, or criminal trespass or whatever your yeah, bailiwick decides it is, but point I'm trying to make is you have to establish probable cause for each and every single element separately. And I'm not even sure that cops understand that there are elements.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:19

Yeah, I I would a hundred percent agree. I mean, shit, just look at let's go simple, let's go super simple. Trespass and when when and when they can't ID somebody.

SPEAKER_03 2:22:31

Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 2:22:32

The elements of that, I think they're pretty basic, especially with trespass. That's the one that drives me up the wall. When you you know, most of the time you're dealing with the civil portion of trespass. They're no longer on the property when they show up, if they were ever on the property, if in Texas at least, the person has to have told them that they got to leave, or there has to be something posted that's clearly posted and easily easily seen. Um, so now you've got that whole other element because we used to have stores are like, yeah, there's a sign over there, and you're looking, it's like half covered by a trash can. And I'm like, that doesn't meet the elements, it's not easily seen. I I get to be the I get to be the judge of that.

SPEAKER_04 2:23:09

Well, and take one step further back from that. Who has the authority to eject people from the property and where does that come from? And do cops ever ask that question?

SPEAKER_02 2:23:16

Oh, they should be. Are you the property owner of the designated representative? That's what I always ask.

SPEAKER_04 2:23:21

They only do that if the person in the prop parking lot has pissed them off and they walk inside and solicit a trespass. That's when they manifest an understanding that they don't actually own the property. If they show up at three o'clock in the morning to some closed business, and but there's no relationship that was previously established between that business giving the police consent to trespass people from it, they're acting outside of their authority to try to police people in that parking lot. You think it stops? It doesn't.

SPEAKER_06 2:23:48

How many hundreds of thousands of bad arrests have come out of stuff like that? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 2:23:52

Oh my god, so many. And how many have got how many cops have been positively reinforced through that behavior because the courts never catch it, nobody else ever catches it, nobody, no lawyers ever really put up a fight on that.

SPEAKER_04 2:24:04

Well, in Tennessee, you've got criminal trespass, and it's always what so here's this is what it is there's so much. This man, somebody gets arrested for criminal trespass. Why are they getting arrested for criminal trespass? It's one of two reasons in cop brain. They're a problem. I've been to you, I've dealt with you, motherfucker, four times tonight, and we're gonna solve this problem. That's that's one theory. The other theory is that guy's got dope in his pockets, and I cannot get it without search incident to lawful arrest. So we're gonna get to a trespass so I can get it. So you're a lawyer, you're in court, your client has B felony meth possession of half a gram of methamphetamine in a bag, or he has C misdemeanor Criminal Trespass, which comes with a $400 fine and 30 days of unsupervised probation. Why do you think we never litigate these cases? You know what I mean? Right. So there are just there's so much to it. Um and the other thing is one of the things that I see routinely screwed up by police officers is that if you're in a situation where you have been criminally trespassed, it happens to Jeff Gray all the time from Honor Your Oath Simulation.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:11

I love Jeff Gray. Honor your oath. Matt loves him. We he got we want him on here so bad.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:16

Oh, I'll I'll talk to him. Uh he's a great guy. Jeff's an awesome. Oh, if you make that happen, that's I can't I can't commit for him, but he's a great guy. I don't know why he wouldn't. Um let's get to that. I will say this. Uh they do not have the authority to gather your information on behalf of this private property that wants to expel you. So they're like, well, we we got to get your ID, but wait a minute. Your your your legal credit for getting my ID is that I commit a crime. I can't commit a crime unless I refuse to leave and you won't let me leave. You're not letting me leave.

SPEAKER_02 2:25:48

Or the best. They're off property and they're like, come here onto the property.

SPEAKER_04 2:25:53

And some liar called in and said, Why are that's another thing? Why are we not arresting people that blatantly lie to 911? If they pissed you off as a police officer, you'd hem them up on false on false reports. Or if they just said that the water was brown in Texas, you might hem up on false reports.

SPEAKER_02 2:26:09

So I'll tell you my experience, it's because of your people. I was told, I was told roughly, I'm not gonna say who Holly attractive intellectually competent people.

SPEAKER_04 2:26:20

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 2:26:21

I was told that by a prosecutor that if we do that, we're sending a message that we're not going to do charges if something real happens to them later, that we may turn them off from using the police when they actually need it. I don't don't shoot the messenger. I'm just telling you what I was told, and that pisses me off.

SPEAKER_04 2:26:41

I will tell you that outside, I'm gonna say this in case Megan Mills ever, because she chewed my ass one time over a video that I and I deserved it. I was negative and I was having a bad day. And I took the video down, but Megan Mills is a prosecutor in Utah who is probably my hero in the law. Um, she is one of the she literally has sued like the state. She was a whistleblower over a major corruption scandal within her own department. She's a badass. And um, but she's not who I'm talking about. But by and large, my experience is that the exact same thing that happens to cops happens to prosecutors, and they're just bureaucrats who they like their job, they like the holidays off, they like the insurance, they like the benefits, they're working towards a pension, they're 10 years in. You know, that's the answer. Easier to deal with uh not pissing off the people that call in than, but still, like if you watch that Jeff just did one two days ago at the Columbia restaurant in St. Augustine. By way, boy call that boycott that piece of shit. Anyway, um, the Columbia restaurant in St. Augustine, Florida. The guy called in and he's like, There's a guy literally panhandling, asking for money. He's literally blocking our door. And I went out there to talk to him and he told me to go fuck myself and I didn't want to, you know, that he was gonna do this. Jeff doesn't talk like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:04

He doesn't talk at all.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:08

Jeff was across the sidewalk, you know, like it's this the the width of wider than a one-lane road across the sidewalk, holding a sign that says pray for our homeless vets. That's his pan landing and soliciting.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:20

That's his thing, man.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:21

Right. So he blatantly lied, blatantly, undeniably. And the intent was to trigger it, it was literally the statutory definition of a false police report. Nothing, yeah, nothing at all.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:36

Yep, nothing. I think I was told in this guy, this was a long time ago, but I think I was told get them to sign a statement and then we'll do it. I was like, okay, I'll try. Most of the time, really.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:49

That's under oath. I mean, I guess it just depends, but no, I mean, why do you need a statement? You've got a 9-1-1 call, and then you went and interviewed the guy and you got it on body cam.

SPEAKER_02 2:28:56

No, that argument.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:58

It's just you being you, pushing off work, punishing the people that you you know, arbitrary enforcement. How do you expect cops not to do it? Lawyers do it all the time, prosecutors do it all the time. I said the other day in a video that picking and choosing is a prosecutor's love language. It is, you know, it is.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:15

So uh to Mr. Dubwubs, Eric Levine looks like he bought snap filters. Thank you. But is that mean I look younger? This is the gray guess you're looking good.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:25

He looks like he got booted from an alternative lifestyle club in Miami down the alley. Ah, what do you see with his mustache?

SPEAKER_02 2:29:32

This is my retro rifle shirt. Uh, every retro rifle shirt is a basically like a Hawaiian shirt, but there's guns on it.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:39

You just is it sponsored? Is this a sponsored segment?

SPEAKER_02 2:29:42

Um it used to be. They're not a sponsor anymore, but they used to be.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:46

Well, having some shit. I need some stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:29:48

Hell yeah, brother. It's I wear them all the time. Ask Matt. I I do wear them like almost.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:53

One of my jujitsu partners wears one that wears was wearing one to dinner the other day, and I didn't. My wife was like, That's a cool shirt. And he's like, It's Rancher Rifle. I've never heard of it before.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:00

Yeah, yeah, I love their shit, man. Um, they just one day they were like, Yeah, we'll sponsor you for a little bit. They did, and that was like, yeah. So they I love them. No, no, and even though they're not a sponsor anymore, still wear their stuff because that's how we got their attention to begin with, is because I was always wearing it. There you go. Yeah. But um, well, I'm looking over at the chat. Um, see if we got any questions just sitting there right now. Uh dubwubs, I love you, buddy. I appreciate it. I think you're coming from probably either James or Matt's channel, but I appreciate you coming over and give me shit, man. I'm a good sport. Uh let me see here. If you have, let me see. If you have guns on your shirt, will cops shoot you if you don't, if you don't take it.

SPEAKER_06 2:30:51

100%.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:53

Oh, too funny.

SPEAKER_06 2:30:54

As long as you're within 21 feet.

SPEAKER_02 2:30:56

Yeah, yeah. Somebody put um when we talked about that earlier, it goes, it's it's not a it's not a 21-foot rule, it's a guide or something like that. I'm like, listen, oh yeah, it's just the common. Yeah, it's just the common use of that. We need to understand it's not a law, it's not an actual rule, it's just yeah, it's just uh what what we're taught. Um training standard is what it is, yeah. But um James, do you have any parting words of wisdom, sir, before we uh end this thing?

SPEAKER_04 2:31:28

Um I would I think I would just say, first of all, whatever I say is not wisdom, it's just my opinion, and and I've probably been through things that have shaped it that's different than what you've been through. But I would say if you're a police officer today, you're gonna have to learn how to ride a unwheel that's built on the Constitution and juggle everything. And if you can do that, then you deserve to wear a badge in America. But the second that you start juggling things that are important to you and you forget about what you're in service to, you've abandoned the mission and you should leave. And, you know, I would also say that if you're the type of person that knows it would be almost impossible to do law enforcement right now, but you're the type of person that would do it for 20 bucks an hour or 25 bucks an hour, go do it, man, and make change. Because the thing is, you're either going to be a change maker or you're gonna be a person that will have regrets that you didn't pursue something because you doubted your ability to be strong enough to be the gear that caused the change. We need people who are principled and who believe in something beyond bigger than themselves to take the torch and change this. And um, I would just say if you're in law enforcement, stop dismissing anybody that thinks differently than you and start taking the approach that you can learn from anybody. And remember that God gave you two ears, don't listen to me because I don't do this, but God gave you two ears and one mouth so you can listen twice as much as you talk and try to learn. And uh I talk a lot, but I do try to learn and I do listen to people and I do pay attention, and I don't just dismiss people because they're different or they're different color or they're come from a different place, and I have become a markedly better human being as a result of my commitment and my manual adjustment sometimes into forcing myself to do that, and so I just think you should try to be a better person every day, and I don't think it matters whether you have uh a patch on your arm.

SPEAKER_02 2:33:32

So I like that. I like that. Um, on uh well, on behalf of the show for sure, I want to thank you for taking the time to do this. I know it's a it is a large commitment. We were already going on two and a half hours, so thank you for that. Thank you to your audience for um being a part of this, jumping in the chat and just laying it out there. I've I've seen it, guys. I've seen everything that you guys are saying or trying to keep up with it. You guys are chatting a lot in this one, so it makes me happy. Um, love it. I love a good roast too. I don't mind it. So I appreciate all the roasting you guys have been doing on us. Uh fun stuff. Um, so thank you guys for that. Uh Matt, you got any parting words of wisdom, sir?

SPEAKER_06 2:34:08

I just want to thank James. Thank you, thank his audience, man. You you educate, you do you, you you, but your heart is in the absolute right place. And when you see something, you call it out. And that it's it's it's

Final Advice And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_06 2:34:20

that's a rare thing to these days to stand in the fire and and and say the things that you say. And uh, I love it, man. You inspire me and you teach me all the time, man. I appreciate that, man.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:31

Thank you. Absolutely. Um, yes, uh, everybody is talking about our Discord channel. We do have a Discord channel, we've been putting it in the chat there. So if you guys want to join that, one of the things that we like to ask our guests, like you, James, is if you ever get a chance, we will create a channel on our Discord for you where people can just throw questions in. And when you feel like it, if you're like, I'm bored, I want to jump in there and answer some questions or whatever it is, uh, we will make one of those for you if you're interested, sir.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:58

So I've never messed with Discord. I don't, you know, I I do have a sub stack, and uh that's where I generally will operate with my that's where I've found that my core audience will gravitate towards, but yeah, I'm happy to do.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:09

I mean, I'm I need to do one of those. I I I have heard of them, I've seen a couple, I just haven't jumped on it yet.

SPEAKER_04 2:35:15

I'll get I'll get with you after and we can uh Yeah, I I think maybe one of the threshold issues for you was be that you have to be able to read, and I'm not sure that it's gonna Yeah, that's fair. No, it's it's a written blog.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:28

I really didn't I usually have your mom read stuff to me, so that helps me out, so I don't have to do it.

SPEAKER_04 2:35:33

My mom died in 2015.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:34

But oh that explains why she's been so quiet.

SPEAKER_04 2:35:37

Uh yeah, she's not she's not much of a talker these days. She left her book, which is why.

SPEAKER_01 2:35:44

I thought I was gonna back down off of that. Fuck you, buddy. No, no.

SPEAKER_04 2:35:47

I mean look, my mom is a giver, and that's why she gave you a lifetime prescription for Valtrex, and everything's gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_02 2:35:53

Fair enough. You know, you gotta get the herps and the sifts all gone. You know, I like simple trip.

SPEAKER_04 2:35:58

Yeah, no, I I've been I've I it's been my privilege and honor to be with you guys. Thank you for having me on. I've had a blast. So appreciate it, brother.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:06

Um, everybody else, thank you for joining us tonight to my mods. Thank you very much for all your hard work today. We watched, we saw you guys.

SPEAKER_03 2:36:13

Where'd Soggy Bottom go, by the way?

SPEAKER_02 2:36:15

Soggy bottom.

SPEAKER_03 2:36:16

Yeah, your boy.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:18

Soggy bottom? Yeah, oh his his com he doesn't have a um a dummy battery for his new camera and the battery.

SPEAKER_06 2:36:31

Oh my gosh, Branny.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:32

Yeah. I told you, I have a bunch of technology dummies that that work with us here.

SPEAKER_04 2:36:37

So well, soggy bottom. I'll look forward to talking to you next time.

SPEAKER_02 2:36:40

Yeah, uh, we'll do. Um, James, hang out real quick after we end this, and uh everybody else, have a good night and thank you for joining. Yeah.